3.1 changes for druids so far

Druid class discussion.

Moderator: Demon Hunters

User avatar
Palehorse
Posts: 2031

Post#16 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:12 am

well the thing is mel, unless I spec for nature's grace I'm not really gimping my healing by going both 2/3 revitalize and 3/3 living seed.....Imp HT in my NS/HT macro means at best I can only cast it every 3 min (unless things are so dead that I want to do a 3.0 sec cast...), and about the only time I cast tranq is Loatheb so ditto Imp Tranq. That leaves grace or natural perfection.

User avatar
110
Elvenbane
Leader
Posts: 4481
Contact:

Post#17 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:28 am

14/0/57

That's how I'd spec, and I think that's how Mel would too. There's a couple reasons imo for not specing for revitalize. The main one being that you're a healer, you're not a buff bot. You need to be able to heal as efficiently as possible so that you can keep healing for as long as it's required of you. It is not your job to manage everyone elses mana/rage/rp whatever, it's theirs. Your job is to keep them alive.

Lealla I'm sure you've looked at the WWS reports and seen Mel's breakdown. With the amount of Nourishes that she casts why the fuck would you optimize your build for anything but Nourish?

Imp Tranquility - terrible fucking talent. The spell costs 70% of your base mana. 70%!!!! Making it an Oh Shit button and nothing more. If you're relying on Tranquility to keep people alive you're healing wrong - end of story.

Naturalist and anything else HT realated are what I consider to be pre-nourish talents. They're nice to have, combined with the glyph, till you get nourish, but once you have nourish they're shit.

Tranquil Spirit may not be worth the points, but I disagree. Look at the real world application of Nourish. TS+Moonglow is a 19% mana reduction of what I would call your main heal these days. It's what you cast to keep people alive, and it's your one main heal not affected by Tree of Life. You maintain your hots and then you nourish. It would be like a Shadow Priest not speccing for a reduction on Mind Flay.

Not to mention with the change in 3.0.8 to make WG trigger the added effect of nourish it becomes one of your best spells for topping off a raid quickly. WG then Nourish to top people off.

To top it off, Nature's Bounty aka Imp Regrowth v2 now affects Nourish making it even more of a vital component of druid healing.

With the build I've listed above your Nourish has a 32% base crit chance. 4% from Nature's Majesty, 25% from Nature's Bounty, 3% from Natural Perfection. This means that even before gear your Living Seed and Nature's Grace uptime is insane.

The numbers speak for themselves. Nourish makes up ~40% of Mel's healing. Why would you optimize your build for anything other than your main heal?

So yeah, I think revitalize is crap. The only way I would even consider it is if it proc'd off Nourish or LB.
It's the thought that counts, not how many people die because of it.
Elvenbane#1520

User avatar
Palehorse
Posts: 2031

Post#18 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:18 pm

another tidbit added to 3.1

Lifebloom: Mana cost of all ranks doubled. When Lifebloom blooms or is dispelled, it now refunds half the base mana cost of the spell per application of Lifebloom, and the heal effect is multiplied by the number of applications.


also, here's the specific druid glyphs that will be added. At present I hardly use innervate but I'm debating whether to keep that glyph or replace it with the Nourish glyph when the 3.1 mana regen changes occur.

I wonder if Nourish will count each LB stack individually making it 3x for a full bloom, or count *per debuff* which would make LB one HoT effect...

Druid

* Glyph of Berserk: Increases the duration of Berserk by 5 sec
* Monsoon Glyph: Reduces the cooldown of your Typhoon spell by 3 sec.
* Glyph of Nourish: Your Nourish heals an additional 6% for each of your heal over time effects present on the target.
* Glyph of Savage Roar: Your Savage Roar ability grants an additional 6% bonus damage done.
* Glyph of Wild Growth: Wild Growth now affects up to 6 targets.

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#19 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:35 pm

Ow. Ow ow ow. So Blizz wants rolling LBs to be prohibitively expensive, but wants the bloom itself to be affected by stacking. That changes a lot of mechanics. I have to think about this one.
Image
Image

User avatar
Palehorse
Posts: 2031

Post#20 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&pageNo=1

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&pageNo=1

these are the two most recently active threads on the topic with blue (ghostcrawler) responses.

from what I understand, the main goal of the LB change is to inject more decision-making with regards to LB; keep rolling and not let it bloom (in which case you don't get mana refunded for the extra casts), or let it bloom.


If we are supposed to be rolling them like you said GC then whats the point of the return bonus?


To acknowledge that you can’t always roll them. Sometimes rolling isn’t needed. Sometimes you have to do something else, like heal another player or run away. This is especially true in PvP where you aren’t just rolling 3 stacks on the whole team constantly.



GC, if you're still around, can you confirm whether or not the mana return is a static value or not? As in, is it always calculated off of the base untalented cost, or does it take into account all talents and buffs (such as tree)? The first way is the way I hope it's implemented.


It is the first way. You can game it a little.

Paxstris
Posts: 256

Post#21 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:57 pm

GC is also a mentally retarded Blue poster as the ONLY two examples in which he cited the reason why you would not want to roll LB is for Loetheb and that fight with the stupid anti-healing aura.. where you only have a window of opportunity to heal.. I forget its name.

In any other raiding situation, rolling LB is a lot more efficient than not. There's also a lot of QQ as Blizzard is forcing us into a way of healing that Bliz wants us to heal, and not the way that druid healing has been done in the past.

Will I reroll my druid into some silly dps spec? No. I'm hoping that by the time I actually get to 80, these changes will have been recinded, or some other solution that's not retardedly stupid is out. Why the fuck would Blizzard train us to roll lifeblooms only to take it away in the next expansion? Who the fuck knows.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/27/1544352 ... plain.html
^ GC's replies to the thread in the Healing Forum. Notice how he plays a resto druid himself (for how long, who knows, or it's even his main, but I bet he's a scrub).

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#22 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:51 pm

That is Loatheb you're thinking of. There are no other anti-healing fights in current content.

Blizz does not want rolling LBs to have such a high healing to mana ratio for raiding. That's pretty simple to understand. When they were the most mana-efficient heal by a huge amount, there was never any real choice: just keep up a full stack on each tank and work the rest of your rotation around that 7 (10 with talents and glyphs) sec refresh.

Now that's going to have a mana penalty relative to allowing the stack to bloom. Is it a good change? I don't really know - I'll probably have a chance to find out when dual specs hit and I set up a Resto spec. Is it going to fundamentally alter the mechanics of the Druid class? I highly doubt it - when I was healing for our first Naxx25 runs, I used all six heals at various times, not just Lifebloom. It is a valuable tool in the arsenal but far from the only one.
Image

Image

Paxstris
Posts: 256

Post#23 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:16 am

Sorry, lol, I'm not too intimate with Naxx boss names, I just know what they do.

GC mentioned Maexxna as the other example as when timing LB burst was good. /blush

Apologies. It wasn't intended as a sarcastic response. I can time Lifebloom on say Loatheb or Maexxna to bloom at the right time. I think all the time about whether to renew a LB or not on non MTs.

User avatar
Taralash
Posts: 442

Post#24 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:06 am

0/0/71

Is the best spec. It's like a 60 inch pair of titties on a twig-ass waist. And yes, I am that good-looking. Almost professionally so. Career? Maybe. Just sayin' hi, keep working hard YaWa.

User avatar
Gnomerman
Posts: 1814

Post#25 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:11 am

increasing the cost of lifebloom won't make it prohibitivly expensive imo. do i heal? no. do i have a drood higher than level 20? no (he's 14).

however, what it does do is make healing as a drood a lot more than rolling lifeblooms on as many people as you have gcd's. i don't know exactly how this nourish spell works. has something to do with lifebloom, (i think). however, i think, as with all healers, they are trying to make it so the healer has to think about what they are doing, not just spam the shit out of their op heal (CoH, chain heal, holy light, and lifebloom were the ones in tbc). putting coh on a cooldown, making healing wave beneficial to a shaman, and these drood changes are doing that. (for paladins... well... yeah... go go healbot 4000). someone correct me if im completely wrong on anything

however, this is my thoughts on a healing drood build, eventhough this is from a mage who thinks about asking for your innervate

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=0VG0uZZf0IuwuxVuVhsVo
Image


There is more to life than pew pew you know, like staying out of the fire so you can live to pew pew another day

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#26 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:23 am

Can't look stuff up now, but a Resto Druid owes it to themselves to drop 11 points in Balance to get to Nature's Splendor - it's just too good not to take. 0/0/71 is a suboptimal build because there are several talents that are just plain bad for PvE healing.

Nourish is a vanilla 1.5 sec cast direct heal, but it heals for 20% more if the Druid has any HoTs on the target. It's a faster cast than Regrowth and, with the 3.1 talents, just as efficient from a healing per mana perspective. The idea is that you cast Regrowth to land the HoT, then Nourish until the Regrowth effect wears off, then Regrowth to refresh the HoT, and so forth. All this while keeping up Rejuvenation and Lifebloom stacks. This is of course for max throughput on a single target. For multi-target heals, it's less effective unless you make sure to set up your HoTs first.
Image

Image

User avatar
Brulan
Posts: 1643
Contact:

Post#27 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:01 pm

Gnomerman wrote: making healing wave beneficial to a shaman,


Lol! Just because of that statement, you are no longer allowed to make comments on healers.
No.

User avatar
Gnomerman
Posts: 1814

Post#28 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:22 pm

no longer allowed :( oh well.

/comment on healing.... go go healing :)
Image





There is more to life than pew pew you know, like staying out of the fire so you can live to pew pew another day

User avatar
Palehorse
Posts: 2031

Post#29 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:11 pm

@ Pax:

I wouldn't read too much into GC's loatheb/Maex comments; he's just using them as specific examples of deciding when and when not to let LB bloom (he didn't say they were the *only* ones, at least from your subsequent quote). I don't agree with everything GC says, but it's his job to read feedback and to convey from the developers accurate and useful information as a Blue poster.

I also get the impression that some resto druids are QQing about the perceived shift in healing style, but GC claimed that the intent isn't to make druids a one-trick pony, unlike say, resto shaman chain-healing:

Someone asked whether we were intending to change the Resto druid's role. We aren't. All of these changes fall, in our minds at least, into the realms of balance or polish.

Fixing mana regeneration and Lifebloom efficiency are balance problems. Both were too good.

Separating the roles of Nourish and Regrowth a little is a polish issue. They were too close together.

One of the things I still feel works the best about the Resto druid is in how different players can heal using different strategies and still be succesful. We have a long way to go with some classes and specs to give them that level of variety.


I'm willing to give blizz the benefit of the doubt until the changes go live (which is after all the idea of QA and the PTR; to do testing/balance before the actual changes are implemented). And atm, my healing playstyle is traditional: LB or RG to start off, rj and add LB to triple stack if necessary...mostly relying on (stacked) HoTs. I save nourish for direct (tank) heals, and WG is for 3 or more people taking around 2-4kish dmg.
NS/HT is my instant-heal.

This arrangement works fine in a heroic situation where I put HoTs on the tank and then keep an eye on the non-tanks for a few seconds, relying on NS/HT and/or swiftmend for a tank insta-heal. I have to change my healing style alot more in raids, especially if I'm raid healing and 2 or more people are taking moderate to heavy damage that would take to long for LB and RG to heal. I was spamming nourish alot a few days ago while running 10-man OS with just me and one elemental shaman healing, and two-shotted sarth (with some raid flasks and fish feast). Same thing with H-AN a day ago; I had to spam nourish to counter the aoe poison dmg on trash mobs.

I personally don't see much of a change healwise in 3.1 for me, since I tend to be cautious about overhealing (esp. in heroics), and I hardly ever tried to take advantage of the 5 second casting man regen rule or roll LB to time the bloom. I do think that I'll be relying on innervate and/or mana pots more, as well as drinks or my underspore pod....

@Lealla:

You're right; Blizz is afraid of LB being both the best HPS & HPM at the same time, especially once the 3.1 mana regen changes occur. I also agree with you that it might not change my healing style too much.

This is the problem. The current numbers show that Nourish is now as efficient with regards to HPM as a 3xLB stack. Lifebloom will effectively lose its niche if the change goes through.


I said above that we don’t want Lifebloom to be both the highest HPM and HPS spell available. We do want efficiency to matter more than it currently does on live, but you still need to keep the raid alive in the short term too.

Nevertheless, I also said above that if the price becomes so steep that the spell becomes unattractive, then we can try the spell at 75 or 80% more expensive rather than 100%. Maybe less. But we haven’t seen enough theorycrafting yet to convince us that is the case and certainly not enough Ulduar healing yet.

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#30 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:29 pm

More Druid changes from the latest PTR build:

Blizzard wrote:Balance
  • Starfall cooldown has been lowered from 3 min to 1.5 min.
  • Eclipse now gives you a 33% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 30% (up from 20%) when you critically hit with Starfire.
  • Owlkin Frenzy now affects all attacks. (Old - Physical melee and ranged attacks only)
  • Celestial Focus now reduces the pushback suffered from damaging attacks while casting Starfire, Hibernate and Cyclone by 23/46/70% and increases your total spell haste by 1/2/3%.
  • Nature's Grace now increasing your spell casting speed by 20% for 3 sec. (Old - Reduced the casting time of your next spell by 0.5 sec.)
Feral
  • Faerie Fire and Faerie Fire (Feral) now reduces the armor of the target for 5 min. (Up from 40 sec)
Restoration
  • Tree of Life mana cost has been changed from 28% of base mana to 13% of base mana.


These are all very welcome changes, especially for Balance. The reduced Starfall cooldown will dramatically improve its utility. The change to Nature's Grace is *very* interesting; it's going to have a reduced benefit for Wrath (but this isn't much of a nerf considering the fact that the old version always clipped the GCD), but will act as a general haste buff, benefitting instant cast spells as well as channeled spells.

Improving the Eclipse Wrath proc in combination with the NG change means that it's no longer such a massive DPS penalty if you accidentally trigger it instead of the Starfire proc.

The change of Celestial Focus from a stun proc to pushback resistance is a significant raid buff and makes the talent nearly essential. Lastly, increasing Faerie Fire to a 5 min duration means that I no longer have to worry about sacrificing DPS to recast it - this directly improves the value of the Improved Faerie Fire talent.

The Tree of Life cost reduction is more of a PvP focused change but I'm sure Arena Resto Druids will welcome it.
Image

Image

Return to “Druid”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron