BMvsMMvsSV

Hunter class discussion.

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Ecnailla
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BMvsMMvsSV

Post by Ecnailla » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:06 pm

Ok, I was going to do a lot of work (and still may), but I can simply steal a ton from BRK’s hard work to start.

This is what he did, what it shows and what it doesn’t show.
He respected to the following specs-
42/20/0 BM
0/41/20 MM
0/24/37 SV
From this point forward I will simply use BM, MM, SV.


He didn’t switch gear. He didn’t run instances. He just took the data and threw it at a paper doll for results. This doesn’t take into account shot rotations, special moves, or other procs – and it is going totally off his gear -thus the real world application of this example is nill. It is simply to show how much the talents effect your white dmg.

Stats-

BM:
Agility 513
RAP 1638
DPS 308.0
Attack Speed 1.74
Damage 477-574
Crit 17.26%

MM (self buffed with Rank 4 TrueShot Aura):
Agility 513
RAP 2036
DPS 302.6
Attack Speed 2.09
Damage 568-670
Crit 17.26%

SV:
Agility 589
RAP 1714
DPS 263.0
Attack Speed 2.09
Damage 490-587
Crit 22.16%

I’m going to remake all BRK’s spreadsheets because I can and I want to. I may add or take away things as I go. I also showed more decimal places. If you go to his site it looks like his math is off because he hide the decimals, but still used them when calculating.

Yea, SV wins with crit, BM wins with DPS and MM wins with max top end dmg. Yada yada- what’s it all boil down to when you shoot something?

Well, let’s shoot our paper doll for 1000 seconds and find out.

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Now…
Lets add Pet Damage into the equation.


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And this is where BRK left off and where I am going to add a little.
This was all done with the MM using his self buff – but the BM and SV have a self buff too. Ferocious Inspiration and Expose Weakness are both talents that proc off of a critical hit. I think it is safe to assume that both of these will be up nearly 100% of the time a hunter is attacking a target in a standing fight. Why? Well…

Ferocious Inspiration lasts 10 seconds and procs when the hunter’s pet scores a critical hit. BRK did not take pet criticals into account above, but with the very fast attack speed and the high chance for “kill command” to crit when the hunter scores a crit – it would be extremely rare for a pet to not crit in 10 seconds.

Expose Weakness is applied to a target for 7 seconds when the hunter scores a critical hit. Again, given a survivalist chance to crit, going 7 seconds without critting would be rare.

So, lets apply a 3% damage bonus to the BM hunter and his pet and apply 25% of the SV hunter’s agility to he and his pet’s AP.

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O.o

Umm…
No. BM wins. Ignore that last picture.

lol.

Expose Weakness puts SV top in DPS, Crit, and AP. I don’t know how to properly translate the dps into a new damage range or average damage per shot, but I can assume with the higher crit and DPS, for our paper doll theory crafting - SV wins.

Wait – did Ecn just lose?
Not by a long shot.
Jump back up to the start –
“This doesn’t take into account shot rotations, special moves, or other procs – and it is going totally off his gear -thus the real world application of this example is nill.”

So… throw the numbers out and lets just take a look at moves and we can just use our imaginations for the time being on how much we think they would or wouldn’t up the numbers. I’m just going to skip moves that I don’t think have relevance. If you think I skip a good one, let me know and we will discuss it.

Ecnailla
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Post by Ecnailla » Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:06 pm

Beast Master:

Improved Aspect of the Hawk-
15% attack speed bonus for 12 sec, 10% chance to proc off all ranged attacks while Aspect of the Hawk is active.
If you run with Aspect of the Viper, skip it. I did, but I think I am going to go back to it to play around with it. I have learned to use mageblood, mana oil, mana injectors and other methods of keeping my in combat mana regen high, so I will have to play with it some to decide how I am going to go on this one.

Endurance Training –
Survivability of you and pet – I take it, but the only dmg argument is a dead hunter/pet does no dmg. There are a lot of talents I the SV tree that utilize this argument

Focus Fire-
2% dmg increase and 20% increase to the crit chance on Kill Command.
I’ll take the 2%, but the increased chance to crit on Kill Command is gold when mixed with other talents such as Ferocious Inspiration.

Thick Hide-
See Endurance Training.

Improved mend pet-
I don’t have it. Dog die? No. If he does –would I get the chance to rez him in combat? I think not.

Unleashed Fury-
20% dmg buff to your pet.
I like how simple and beautiful this one is.

Improved Mend Pet-
Mend pet mana cost is knocked down by 20% and has a 50% chance of cleansing 1 Curse, Disease, Magic, or Poison effect EACH TICK. Increased pet survivability while helping to conserve my mana? I’ll take one to go with fries.

Ferocity-
Increases the Critical strike chance of your pet by 10%.
See Unleashed Fury.

Spirit Bond. – Meh.

Intimidation –
A 3 sec stun and causes high threat.
I call this priest saver. Throw it on anything the priest just pulled and flip growl on- your pet may die, but you might save the priest. It’s also like a mini scatter shot in pvp.

Bestial Discipline-
Focus Regen of pet by 100%.
What would rogues say if they had a talent that increased their energy regen by 100%. Warriors, rage generation by an extra 100%? Any takers. Yea, that’s the same reaction my dog had.

Animal Handler –
Increases mounted speed by blah blah whatever(just get a riding crop)-
AND-your pets chance to hit by 2%/4%- yes please : ) (I only have 1 point ATM)

Frenzy-
Pet has 100% chance to gain 30% attack speed after a critical hit for 8 seconds…
I have 5 points in this and feel I am wasting one. I think at 80% chance my pet would keep this up 100% of the time.

Ferocious Inspiration-
3% dmg buff to all party members for 10s after your pet crits. Consider it a buff.

Beastial Wrath-
Increases pet dmg by 50% for 18 sec every 2 min. Also makes your pet CC immune.
(God this move rocks, but it totally screws most theory crafting – its hard to calculate in)

Catlike Reflexes –
Survivability – its nice, but I think points can be better spent unless your pet is going to be tanking.

Serpent’s Swiftness-
20% ranged attack speed for you.
20% melee attack speed for your pet.
No, this isn’t a move –it’s a passive talent that is hidden between Bestial Wrath and The Beast Within. IMO best 5 points spent on all trees.

The Beast within –
When Bestial Wrath is on your pet, this is on you.
You get a 10% bonus and a 20% break on mana. You are also CC immune.


MM and SV to come….

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Drizztdeurde
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Post by Drizztdeurde » Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:25 am

I will make one comment, and this was a very interesting read and I will research a little with you as well. However the one thing you didn't take into consideration was chance to hit. This stat is entirelly gear based, however I aquire the SP tonight and am at around 105 unbuffed Hit Rating, omg does it make a difference. SO in my switch from MM to SV, I lost approx. 100 RAP mostly from the Self buff of True Shot. However I've gained 6% crit AND almost 50 Hit rating. OMG does that make a difference. Of all the things I've found so far Capping your hit rating will provide the largest increase in self dps. Obviously, a 2k crit that misses is no better then the 400 white that hits EVERY time. I'm digging SV nice to see you involved Ecn. it's encouraging me to research the numbers alot more. I'll get back to you as well on some of the stuff I find :)

Oh and you DID SAY SV WINS :P
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Ecnailla
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Post by Ecnailla » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:06 am

Yes, I did notice the lack of hit. I threw in a small note about it not including "misses and stuff like that" as if it was a small fact, when it is really much larger. The above figures would falter quite a bit in a live test, unfortunatly. It's more of a starting point.

SV does win... in the paper doll test. I still say BM will win in a RL test - but there are issues with that as well... Such as - if I run with you - you get FI and I get EW. We buff each other. We would always have diffrent buffs for diffrent runs- so it's impossible to do 5 man tests unless we both run with only self buffs- no debuffs from other party members on mobs and we run the same instance with the same other 4 people back to back then compair screen shots of dmg meters of total dmg done. Oh- and we would need mystical "equal" gear for diffrent spec, not identical gear. So we talk, but no numbers are gonna be dead on... : (

Context
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Post by Context » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:23 am

just fyi - in the first paper doll test results - on "# of crits in 1000 sec.s" you put the BM result in bold print instead of the SV which was a bit higher.

ALSO - on the total dmg over 1000 sec.s you put BM result in bold which was still lower than SV.
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Elleandra
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Post by Elleandra » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:19 am

I have a feeling that most classes benefit a great deal from hit (up to cap in all circumstances, I'd bet.) I'd suggets you tailor any calculation to boss mobs, because they are what matter in PvE. If you are PvP focussed, that changes things, of course.

Ecnailla
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Post by Ecnailla » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:42 am

Upon Elle’s comments I realize what I am trying to figure is way to wide of a range. 5 mans, raids, solo... Ok – this may take a while, but I am going to start from scratch and figure damage done based on raid buffs that Yawa generally has available. Elitist Jerks has an insane hunter spread sheet that should allow me to equip whatever gear, talents and buffs that I could hope for. I will set up a few scenarios and post my findings. I should be able to figure everything as a lvl 70 vs a skull lvl elite (aka raid boss).

I will do the following scenarios in kara gear with spec applicable gems and enchants–
Each Spec in a raid as the only hunter.
Assume one of each hunter in raid (Me, Drizz and L.) I will also set it up logicly, 3 hunters wouldn’t be in the same group. SV debuff is raid wide because it is a debuf- Trueshot aura and FI are party buffs, so I can assume we would be with appropriate dmg groups (mm melee group, BM any dps group)

I will do total buffed damage done by hunter and pet and then I will try to give a good idea of how each debuff/buff effects the total damage.

Expose weakness is a debuff that effects all melee and ranged non-caster dps in the raid.
True shot aura is a buff that effects melee and ranged non-caster dps in the party.
FI is a buff that effects all damage done from the party (caster, melee, whatever)

Tons of rogues, SV is the better buff- all mages, warlocks and S.priests? BM is better. I’ll try to use our G.Lair run as a good base of yawa’s current set up.

Ecnailla
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Post by Ecnailla » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:48 am

I am sure I can look it up when I get home, but what is the +hit cap?
Can you completely remove your chance to miss and thus it is capped or do they actually cap it off at some point thus making it impossible to have 100% hits?
Either way, what hit rating is considered the max out point?
Is it the same for melee, ranged and casters?

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Rayhort
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Post by Rayhort » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:08 am

- Miss rates against level 73/boss mobs (note that there is always a very small chance you will miss regardless of the amount of +hit gear you are wearing):
-- 1h/Shield, 2h: 8.64% [137 hit rating]
-- Dual wield: 25.5% [403 hit rating] (speculated, may be slightly higher)
-- Ranged: 8.6% [137 hit rating]
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Lealla
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Post by Lealla » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:31 am

The effective miss rate floor is right around 1%. I don't know if there has been a conclusive demonstration that it never goes below 1%, but it's safe to treat that as canon for purposes of gearing up.

By the way, I'm also skeptical about the hit cap on 73 mobs. From a table that was made available way back in the day (long before BC), I was under the impression that miss chance against mobs also scales up at +3 levels or higher, just not as rapidly as spell miss. The figure arrived at was 3% per level at +3 levels or higher, making the miss rate 10.6%, not 8.6% for single-wielders, and 29.6% for dual-wielders. (5% base + 5% for level + 19% DW penalty + 0.6% for mob Defense skill)

Even if you do accept that it's 8% base rather than 10%, the effective DW miss rate is 27.6%.
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Rayhort
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Post by Rayhort » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:02 pm

Those numbers have been found out through extensive log parsing from boss encounters in TBC.
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Kalissa
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Post by Kalissa » Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:57 pm

Lealla wrote:Even if you do accept that it's 8% base rather than 10%, the effective DW miss rate is 27.6%.
It's been pretty definitively pinned at 25.5%, so either 1h/2h have their own special penalty or the DW penalty is not the 19% it once was.

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