The lovely Blessing of Salvation

Hunter class discussion.

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Tagaal
Demon Hunter
Posts: 433

The lovely Blessing of Salvation

Post#1 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:01 pm

I know this was an issue with some of you this past raiding night. I agree I didn't like having it either but after going through a full night of raiding with it, I would have to agree with the rest of the officers/raid leaders that it didn't really affect my output. We are already on top and generate enough threat as it is. I have a feeling we will be seeing more salv blessings on us in future raids so your gonna have to get used to it. It has nothing to do with not knowing how to feign. What it has to do with is decreasing the risk of pulling off the tank and or having a feign death resisted and could possibly wipe the raid. Its just extra insurance for us not to make a mistake, thats how I see it. So next time they automatically buff you with it, please don't complain. In due time, we will be given the full set of raid buffs when bosses are on farm, but for now, learn to dps with salv on.

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Ecnailla
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Post#2 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:41 am

I know im not raiding, but im throwing my input in just the same -

I don't really understand this at all.

If a hunter pulls it IS a question of knowing how to feign and watch meters. Why in the world would you plan on and encourage bad play style? If a feign gets resisted, MD the tank, throw a distracting shot, aimed shot and steady shot on the boss and two things will happen - you will have not gotten any aggro for a few seconds and the tank will have gotten a boost to his aggro - back off a bit until the next one is up - its ok to just auto shot until FD is cooled down - your dps will not drop in that short time as much as if you ran the whole fight without pally buffs.

Are our hunters having issues pulling?

The argument about it reducing risk is flawed and just wrong. If you nerf your dps, the fight will last longer, healer mana will drain farther...

Extending fight times by nerfing dps has a much higher probablity of wiping a raid than a hunters aggro EVER should. If there is a problem with hunters pulling it should be handled with that player, not by nerfing everyone of that class.

Now if we have kings, might, wisdom and there is an extra pally? Sure - throw it on me.

I dont understand how this can't effect your output? Which buff did you go without? Surly not kings - you get crit, ap and survivablity... Might? Less ap didn't effect your output? Is that how you look at it when your gloves go red and you stop getting the ap from them?

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Heartwood
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Post#3 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:18 am

There is a tagline I will always remember from the forums:

"If a tank dies, its the healer's fault.
If a healer dies, its the tank's fault.
If a dps dies, its their own damn fault"

It made me laugh when I saw it, but there is a solid idea behind it. The problem in a 25 man, endgame raid is that if a dps pulls aggro off the tank is the MT is now no longer generating threat and the rest of the raid still is. This is what leads to raid wipes.

While it is great to see our members working to improve their numbers, I would also discourage making your rank in the dps meters the basis of how you judge your raid performance. A mage that consistently CC's their target and has lower dps, is much more valuable to a raid than a mage with higher dps on the meters but has caused a wipe or player deaths due to poor CC.

Threat reduction, along with group comps and other factors, is managed by raid leaders to ensure the best chances of killing a boss. That goal should be the same for all members of the raid, not their position on the damage meters (although those numbers are still important in their own different way).

-Heart
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Drizztdeurde
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Post#4 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:11 am

No offense but it's bullshit. I feign death all the time and never have a problem on boss kills if u want to salv me on trash that's fine. But I'm tired of feeling that just cause of my fucking class I have to tip toe around and be carefull not to "piss" of the the officers if I make a mistake. Everyone makes fucking mistakes , it's part of learning. I fucked up and 3 pulled some dragonkin things, sorry I fucked up. I do not see us make threads about warriors who break using a shout ability or any other class that breaks CC, or grabs agro HINT HINT EB. So if you want to flame a class have your shit together the hunters most of the time are the class that shows up every raid ready to go on time and with all there shit together. Thanks
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Brulan
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Post#5 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:15 am

Lol if a hunter ever pulls aggro they should be immediately /gkicked (with or without salv) I played my hunter for 2 years and pulled aggro once. And proceeded to be harassed daily about it for 3 months.

I couldn't help it, I got a phone call in the middle of a Princess Huhuran (I know i butchered the spelling) attempt and kind of sort of never hit Feign. Oops.

I don't mean to argue with the officers choice, but I think giving the hunters Salv is just a waste and only hurts the raid. If you have a hunter pulling aggro, he shouldn't be in the raid in the first place and needs to lrn2play.

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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#6 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:23 am

I agree 100%, but I think one of the benefits of the hunter class is their amazing ability to drop 100% threat multiple times during a fight. Like a mage keeping a target cced, a good hunter will never come close to pulling aggro. FD when you are at about 70% of the tanks aggro and even if it gets resisted you will be able to do it again before you overtake him. Then just do it each time it is up and aggro should be on the bottom of your list of things to worry about. It shouldn't even be an issue that needs to be talked about.

Aggro management on a mage, shadow priest and other dps classes is different. Fade is temporary and doesn’t drop you 100%. As a shadow priest, there were times my damage was limited 100% by aggro. If you take 2 shadow priests, one with BT gear, all epic gems, the best enchants and the other in just kara quality gear it is possible for the 2nd priest to do as well if not better on a dps meter if your tank isn't that well geared. The first shadow priest might have the power to rape the damage meter, but if he does, he will pull aggro and die, thus doing no damage for the rest of the fight. Unless one priest has a threat reducing advantage, they will both be allowed only so much damage before they kill themselves. This amount of damage is exactly the same for both of them and thus if they both can hit that aggro cap - any gear after that is going to waste b/c of a lesser geared tank.

Enter the wonderful advantage of the hunter class.
We are the ONLY class that has the ability to drop aggro 100% multiple times during a fight. We need no regents. We can do it every 30 seconds.

Step one, let the tank get some aggro. At least one hunter should MD the tank at the start of the fight.
Step two, start dps.
Step three, Feign death when you reach about 70-80% of the tanks threat.
Step four, Feign death again as soon as its cooled down.
Step five, see step four until boss dies.

In all modesty, i do sick damage on my hunter. Most hunters who know how to play do. I run 5 mans with tanks in greens. I go all out dps, never hold back and NEVER have issues pulling off the tanks. I have over 50% of the damage on a lot of runs and it is becuase the warlock, mage or whoever can't go all out without risk. I can. My MD with distracting shot, aimed shot and either arcane or steady shot give him more aggro than he could dream for to start a fight. Using the above method takes 0 effort, you just hit a button every 30 seconds.


This type of planning is accommodating to bad habits. What if our mages were horrible at keeping sheeps? Would we look to other forms of CC as a general practice moving forward? or would we work on it until our mages got it right?

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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#7 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:38 am

I typed this before I saw drizz and bur's posts.

Drizz is right - we all make mistakes and have off nights. I'm not saying a hunter will never pull aggro - I'm saying as a raid, we should not assume hunters are going to pull to the point that we nerf them.

If I get so freakin geared that I have problems with not only catching the MT, but passing him in 30 seconds, mid fight.... I'll raid without my pants on. This should nerf my dmg to the point that aggro will no longer be an issue. I might be able to get away with just removing my belt or gloves, but just to be safe- i'll remove the pants. If it still is an issue I will continue to remove gear until i am raiding naked. I am sure at some point before I get totally naked aggro will not be an issue.

Sound stupid? What if a mage keeps pulling with salv.? Seems like the next logical step is to start removing gear, or gearing them down.

The officers and raid leaders make the final call and can do what they wish, but I hope you can see why it is very insulting to the players of a class when you start removing the buffs they get.

Ok.. this raid, since you rogues can't seem to help from pulling- no grace of air totem for you. And since the mages seem to have the same issue, put the boomkin in a melee group.

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Brulan
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Post#8 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:39 am

If the hunters want me to stay out of this topic I will from now on but I thought i'd at least give my opinion since I have a lot of raid experience as a hunter.

Ecnailla wrote: My MD with distracting shot, aimed shot and either arcane or steady shot give him more aggro than he could dream for to start a fight.


Lol Distracting shot is a waste now days. Its only something like 900 threat. You'd be better off with an auto shot.

But needless to say. Basing your choice on saying you're worried about hunters pulling aggro means that the officers of the guild have no faith in any hunters in the guild being able to control their aggro (Which is pretty much the #1 basic thing all raiding hunters should know).

But this begs the question why do you (the officers as a whole I should say) have such an issue? Do we constantly have hunters pulling aggro on bosses? Are the raid leaders constantly telling hunters to feign?

I've seen other classes in this guild pull aggro on bosses 100x more often than i've seen a hunter.

p.s. Salv on trash is laughable. Less powerful MD ftl.

p.s.s Drizz man I know your pissed off, and I would be too, but try to stay a little more constructive. People tend to get defensive when you start attacking them and the the whole discussion goes to hell.

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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#9 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:46 am

/embarrassed

I honestly never even took a moment to consider how much threat distracting shot did. I have just assumed it was my highest aggro shot. I didn’t even consider that it didn’t scale with my gear like my other shots, but since it does no dmg, why should it.


This is just proof, we all make mistakes. I was using a less than perfect setup on those green geared meat shields and still have never had issues with them holding aggro. (at least not vs me).

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Tachion
Posts: 1015

Post#10 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:52 am

This shit really pisses me off. Have you ever seen a healer or any other high dps class w/o salv in a 25man raid? Do you realize what DPS is being negated by having salv over might?

Raid mechanics are on a much higher level than a couple of peoples opinions on "How people SHOULD play a hunter". If a raid leader tells you to put on salv, then maybe its for a reason? Maybe we dont like seeing a 25 man raid boss run all the way across the room to hand the hunter his ass if he doesnt FD in time or its resisted. Maybe we dont like seeing the boss cleave the nearest healer on the way in or out.

I encourage you all to pick up a DPS spreadsheet and find out the difference. I think you will find that "we" are more well thought than you may believe.

Do I believe that hunters, as well as all other DPS classes need to pay attention to their agro. Hell yes. Hell, healers even on that matter. If the boss is heading over towards the tank on the initial pull, is it a good idea to pop a quick heal on the tank. NO.

Guys, it seems to me that everyone is so quick to share their opinion on something they dont like, but have no interrest whatsoever on how their opinion, if carried out, will affect everyone else.

Im asking for everyone to back off, and let us do what we feel best for our 25man progression in this moment. This is not long term, but a temporary fix until we get all the bugs worked out and have room to play with.
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Brulan
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Post#11 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:53 am

Lol! Its all good. I'm just super big into theorycrafting and min/maxing and pretty much sit and read that stuff all day at work when I have nothing to do.

Ecnailla shoot me a whisper if you log on today.
No.

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Brulan
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Post#12 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:06 am

Tach,

I don't believe any of these posts with the exception of a few statements said in the heat of the moment are meant as "Zomg you officers suxorz and are stoopid."

I understand people get super defensive when someone questions/has a different opinion on a topic, its only natural. However, I thought this was turning into a pretty good discussion actually. If people can't analyze the play style and min/maxing of their toons then we just turn into a robots with no mind of our own.

With that being said, if Tach you really want every to just shut the hell up and let you guys do your thing thats fine me. I just hope thats not really how the guild handles things.

-Bru

Btw Tach man I have mad respect for you, being RL/Officer is tough and you guys do a lot. I in no way criticize any RL/Officer in any of my posts either directly or indirectly cuz i know how hard it is.


With that being said, and this will probably be my last post on the subject. Having the dps increase of might over salv might just make that big of a difference. On a short Kara fight probably not. However, 3 or 4 hunters with Might over Salv on a 10 minute VR kill could mean the difference b/w killing him before the enrage or hoping we have enough dots to take him down after he enrages.
No.

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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#13 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:11 am

I think your wrong tach, but I have a spreadsheet from elitestjerks that should help me prove so. It really depends on which buff you are removing - i am going to assume might. This will take a few min to figure out, but I’ll get some very rough numbers up in a few min.

I don't think you are as well thought out as you think. I think you are nerfing a class b/c you don't understand its mechanics. I am sorry if you find this insulting, but I find it insulting that our leaders assume we don't know how to play our class and decide to nerf us as a general practice.

Tach, or any of the officers, If you do think you have some theorycraft or some advanced number the officer went over before making this decision – please please, lets see them. I would love to think that a few officer go together, crunched some numbers, made some spreadsheets and came to a scientific conclusions – and not that a few hunters had a bad night so in ignorance a policy was put in place.


Have I ever seen any other blah blah blah… did you even read my posts? I have already told you why hunters are different. We have a unique abilities that should make us salv immune.

Temporary fix? Until a bug gets worked out? Cut the crap – your not a blue poster on the official forems. There is no reason for salv to be put on hunters and I have yet to see any good arguments for it.

Maybe you don’t like seeing a boss run after a hunter? What is your point? So the hunter screwed up – its not a matter of buffs- it’s a matter of the hunter making a mistake. I am willing to bet we pull less than some other classes drizz was kind enough to point out.

“Guys, it seems to me that everyone is so quick to share their opinion on something they dont like, but have no interrest whatsoever on how their opinion, if carried out, will affect everyone else”

Damn that pissed me off.
As I stated before, it is MORE OF A RISK TO THE RAID TO LIMIT DPS AND THUS EXTEND BOSS FIGHTS THAN TO WORRY ABOUT A HUNTER SCREWING UP.

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Brulan
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Post#14 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:17 am

Flere man, try and keep stuff positive.

Leading a thread into negative comments pretty much throws this whole discussion out the window.

I know its hard to stay objective, but please try to. I infact love talking about this stuff, but i'll stop if people start attacking eachother in their posts.
No.

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Tachion
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Post#15 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:25 am

Coming from someone that is not in our raids while we are addressing issues, you cannot understand why we are pusing for salv ATM. If you want me to cut the crap, be prepared to hear something that may not make certain people feel good.

My calculations on hunter dps show an average 1.05% increase in dps with might vs 1 less hunter in a raid, which would be a decrease of 13% overall raid dps.
Last edited by Tachion on Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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