The lovely Blessing of Salvation

Hunter class discussion.

Moderator: Demon Hunters

Kendalh
Demon Hunter
Posts: 738

Post#16 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:31 am

Hey Ec,

Just thought I'd throw this in. On our first night on VR. We had a few pulls of VR off of the MTs and no Salv on the hunters. On our second night. We had salv on hunters and no pulls off of the MTs. I don't know if our hunters had a better night the second time or if they were just lucky. Two attempts don't really prove anything but it's a start. This isn't something that is going to be permanent. It's a patchwork fix until we (being everyone that cares) can figure out how to stop the pulling off of MTs on untauntable mobs.

One more note, the hunters on a raid boss can't use their MD to help mitagate their own aggro because we have been using them to build threat for the extra tanks required for some fights.

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Heartwood
Posts: 1670

Post#17 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:43 am

Ok, first. People need to cool their heels here. CAPITAL LETTERS, swearing, or personal jabs take away from anyone's ability to convey a point.

If during a raid, you have a suggestion, please feel free to make it. During a raid there are a lot of issues being dealt with, and you may have a suggestion that hasn't been considered or overlooked by the raid leaders. Thanks, you've helped the raid. If its not accepted, do not disrupt the raid or keep pressing the issue simply because you feel you are right. Raid prep starts by the officers well in advance of the actual raid, and the reasons we set groups/buffs are for giving the raid the best overall chance of beating a boss. A review of each raid also goes on well after the raid to see where our strengths and weaknesses were.

Is our intent to nerf a class or reduce DPS output? Absolutely not, quite the opposite. Getting upset because you want to do more DPS is nice on the one hand that you want to contribute more, however, if it is done in a way that interrupts the raid or becomes problematic, you are helping no one. For now, especially on very threat sensitive fights such as VR, you and other classes may well have Salv. Is it a slight? Of course not. Does it mean you're always going to have that same mix of buffs? Not necessarily.

Tagaal has been very helpful in condensing the relevant Hunter suggestions, and they have been heard and considered.

-Heart
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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#18 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:46 am

I am sorry my post was so heated, it just really ticked me off.

I knew I would get the "your not raiding" card. Still doesn’t mater- I know the class and there isn't a situation that exists that can explain away all my reasoning above. You aren’t there and don’t understand what we are doing is weak. I have raided and I have done it quite well thank you. I think it is safe to say I have a pretty good grasp of this class.

You can say what you like about me, I can take it – but don’t you dare start insulting our hunters on an individual basis because of mistakes they have made. Don’t try to blame this all on one person – like I said before- if you are having issues, it should be dealt with individually with that player.


I didn’t take the time to sub out all my gear- but just a very rough number, depending on if you have 3 or 4 hunters, is 47,988 – 63,984 damage in a 5 min fight, not including the extra you pet gets.


Ah - what the hell, I’ll do the numbers for you pet too - its about 8,000 – 10,500.


This all scales with gear obviously. I think our hunters are a little better geared than the paperdoll hunter that auto loads in the spreadsheet, so those numbers are a little low.

Kendalh
Demon Hunter
Posts: 738

Post#19 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:47 am

I have a question because I don't know all the mechanics behind hutners and would like to learn. Would salv actually increase dps? If you are generating less threat, can't you push dps a a bit more? If so, is that gain more than what might would give you?

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Drizztdeurde
Posts: 748

Post#20 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:50 am

I'm not trying to flame officers in my post. I have no problem (well maybe a few) with how u guy's run our raids. What pisses me off is gimping a class who for the most part most don't understand it's mechanics and when those that do try to help or inform those that don't they get blown off. This is something from my Standpoint that has been brewing for awhile for me, I read elitest jerks and troll forums finding out info aobut my class, I know it pretty well, am I perfect fuck no. But I also generally keep my mouth shut unless it's something I KNOW about. THne I get blown off, yes u guy's are in the lead for a reason. But I'm really tired of the hunter class get flamed for everything. When we make mistakes it alot more noticable then other's, yes. No other class has to stick it's ass out on the line and pull lvl 73 elite mobs to the tanks, we do, we try our best if we fuck up it generally kills everyone, sorry. I'm the first to admit when I make a mistake. I don't give 2 shit's about where I am on some stupid meter, I do care about getting my toon set up so he can help the raid as a whole.

SO.... a few note's. MD will not dump my agro on a tank ever, it will put agro on the tank for 3 shots and I put it up everytime it's cooldown is up.

FD RARELY if ever get's resisted on Boss's as generally we don't have the agro, it just dumps us to the bottom of his threat meter. Yes I can build it back up rather quickly, but I can do it with salv on too. You want me to push dps when we're on timer's then set me up so that I have max dps to push. Gimping me of 150 AP does that, esp when some of my buffs scale off from my AP.

Putting us in a group with 3 rogue's doesn't do shit for me, you know why VR went well the other night, I had EB in my group as a mana battery. BM shot rotation opptimaley is Steady/auto and that's it. MM I get 5%-8% damage boosts on my multi-shot, no Idon't toss it down hallways to kill sheeps, but yes it helps on boss fights. Which is why yes I have more mana issue's then u tag, and this is also why I'll finish a TK run lower then you on the meter as I can't spam one of my bread and butter shots, fine I don't give 2 shit's, we live and kill another day. I hate BM I won't spec it, I like the spec I have, is it different mechanics then BM yes it is. If u don't know that then go read EJ or some of the thousands of other posts. in Forums throughout WoW.

My point is I'm just tired of having my class blame/ridiculed for things. Everyone fuck's up, we're not perfeect. I think as O's u guy's do your best with the info you have but how about if you don't know or missunderstand something ask, we're a guild and in some senses yes you have to make decisions bases on what u know, but there are members in this guild that know alot more then you guy's do about certain things, use those recources I'm not saying I know everything about hunters, Rev know's more, Lealla probably know's more but if u don't know ask or if instead of saying we're doing this because I said so, offer a reason. Do I agree with it, doesn't matter, but atleast I wasn't treated like I'm a kid who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about cause most of the time I do have an idea what the hell I'm talking about.

Seriously though, I'm not trying to flame anyone or piss anyone off, jsut the attitude that this guild has shown as a whole towards this class has started to irritate the shit out of me and I know it's had that affect on a few others.
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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#21 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:53 am

Thank you for letting me know the situations ken.
Salv should do absoultly nothing for a hunter. We are the only class that can dump 100% of our aggro at will. There should be no reason we arn't already pushing 100%.

I can see on trash how it could help a hunter who was too lazy to manage his aggro, but we should not accomadate this type of playing.

I'm not saying it is ground breaking dmg that you are losing. I am saying it is pointless and insulting.

Even if you are having to using MD on a off tank - if a FD gets resisted you just back off- the dmg you lose from backing off for a few seconds is still less than if all the hunters run without might.


People make mistakes, don't nerf a whole class because of it.

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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#22 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:02 pm

I can vouch for drizz when he says he could care less about the meters. He is Surv spec, and dispite all the crap i give SV and MM hunters- SV is a build that dose more for the raid then for the hunter. EW is a debuff that does a little for the hunter and a lot for the other non caster dps. He nerfs his own dmg to help the output of the raid.

Yes, I am BM and I do that to max my own dmg. Its my play style.
Should mages fight to get higher on the dmg meter? no - thats stuipid and they will kill themselves.
Should hunters? Sure... aggro shouldn't be an issue for them. Again - we are the only class that could fight tooth and nail for that top slot without risk of pulling durring a boss fight.

No one has to go all out durring trash and if your pulling on trash hunters just need to back off a bit and not forget to FD then too - not just on boss fights.

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Tachion
Posts: 1015

Post#23 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:11 pm

I worked it out in the hunter spreadsheet with MM spec and survival, including pet damage. There was a .03% deviation overall for different specs.


Ecnailla wrote:I am sorry my post was so heated, it just really ticked me off.

I knew I would get the "your not raiding" card. Still doesn’t mater- I know the class and there isn't a situation that exists that can explain away all my reasoning above. You aren’t there and don’t understand what we are doing is weak. I have raided and I have done it quite well thank you. I think it is safe to say I have a pretty good grasp of this class.

You can say what you like about me, I can take it – but don’t you dare start insulting our hunters on an individual basis because of mistakes they have made. Don’t try to blame this all on one person – like I said before- if you are having issues, it should be dealt with individually with that player.


I didn’t take the time to sub out all my gear- but just a very rough number, depending on if you have 3 or 4 hunters, is 47,988 – 63,984 damage in a 5 min fight, not including the extra you pet gets.


Ah - what the hell, I’ll do the numbers for you pet too - its about 8,000 – 10,500.


This all scales with gear obviously. I think our hunters are a little better geared than the paperdoll hunter that auto loads in the spreadsheet, so those numbers are a little low.
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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#24 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:24 pm

so you are saying that 220ap is only .03% of my dmg when I am only starting with 1300 ap?

I think your math is wrong.

Like I said, I don't think it is an epic amount of dmg - but I am willing to bet its a heck of a lot more than .03%.


Isn't really the point. The point is you are nerfing a class, it is insulting and has no point.

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Tachion
Posts: 1015

Post#25 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:26 pm

No thats not what imsaying. As stated befor, its 1.05% reduction with a .03% deviation between specs on the elitest jerks spreadsheet. Im sorry your insulted.
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Brulan
Posts: 1643
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Post#26 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:36 pm

Oops. I need to learn how to click on fields
Last edited by Brulan on Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tachion
Posts: 1015

Post#27 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:39 pm

Which spreadsheet are you using? Im using the one labeled Hunter_DPS_Calc.xls. Im basing my numbers and gear off what most of our raiding hunters have ATM, producing 1124 dps vs 1185 DPS. I ran ti against MM and Surv, and got nothing near those numbers. Did I miss something?

It seems that the static increase would be huge if your hunters gear was not up to raid par, but does not scale when gear gets higher in stats.
I will look at the numbers more.
Last edited by Tachion on Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#28 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:39 pm

lol

somethings way off- your numbers for MM are higher than for BM.

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Brulan
Posts: 1643
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Post#29 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:44 pm

Tach,

I used the same sheet. I left all the gear alone. I might play with the gear a little bit while I wait for the servers to come up and see if it changed my numbers. Did you use the optimal Marks dps talent build? What shot rotation did you use? 1:1.5 is what all Marks/survival hunters should be using. Unless their latency is completely horrible.

For BM I used the universally accepted build and used a 1:1 steady shot rotation.

I didn't run it for survival. I guess i'll do that next and edit my post. I'll be sitting on vent if you want to work through the worksheet together tach.
No.

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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#30 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:51 pm

I am using the same one. Hunter_DPS_Calc.xls

I just opened it and didn't touch gear or anything- it starts at 856.66 BM and goes to 908.98 no pets.
52.32 - 6.1%

That is BM.

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