The lovely Blessing of Salvation

Hunter class discussion.

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70
Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#46 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:25 pm

needed or not you should hit it everytime it is up or at least keep yourself at half the tanks aggro.

I'm kind of in shock that 2 of our raiding hunters are ok with salv on them.

Don't need to hit FD? Yea.. take off half your gear and you won't need to hit FD either....

Wouldn't you rather do MORE dmg and hit FD? or am i missing something?

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Irreverant
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Post#47 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:31 pm

For the past few weeks ive either been 1st, 2nd, or 3rd on the charts overall. As long as i can maintain that position and not have to worry about passing the tanks then i am all for it. Sure might does help but i have been in many a raiding guild and imo salv helps out the raid in the long run far more than might. I have been in gruul fights where gruul will take off and slap a hunter in the face because he "forgot" about FD. Im not saying i never hit FD but i dont hit it until im atleast 5th on omen and i have never had a 25 man boss run to hit me in the face cause of pulling off tanks.. *coughelvencough*
When Blizzard created hunters they gave them twice as many ways to fuck up as any other class.

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Brulan
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Post#48 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:36 pm

Ok so....

I loaded Tag up with spec and gear. Remember this is without pet. so add in a static 300ish dps for pet which will get you to your 1k dps

So BM using 1:1 steady shot rotation

Without 742.15 (remember this is without pet. so add in a static 300ish dps for pet which will get you to your 1k dps)
With 787.00

Thats a difference of 44.85 dps or a net loss of 6.04% dps.

Drizz broke my spreadsheet and the armory so I can't use him at the moment. It wont load him I dont know why.
No.

70
Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#49 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:38 pm

Yea, drizz breaks it b/c his page on the armory is down at the moment. Just have to wait for it to come back up.

70
Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#50 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:45 pm

Irreverant wrote:For the past few weeks ive either been 1st, 2nd, or 3rd on the charts overall. As long as i can maintain that position and not have to worry about passing the tanks then i am all for it. Sure might does help but i have been in many a raiding guild and imo salv helps out the raid in the long run far more than might. I have been in gruul fights where gruul will take off and slap a hunter in the face because he "forgot" about FD. Im not saying i never hit FD but i dont hit it until im atleast 5th on omen and i have never had a 25 man boss run to hit me in the face cause of pulling off tanks.. *coughelvencough*



Even if you are by far #1 every time - as a hunter, you should still push it as hard as you can b/c it helps the raid. Try to get even higher - close your dmg meter and just open a dps moniter and try to push it as high as you can. FD. FD. FD. There is no reason not to FD, just throw it in your macro and let it FD you everytime its cooled down. How in the world does salv help over might on hunters? (on bosses) We shouldn't be anywhere near the tank once he has set aggro. Added AP is added dmg, period. Added threat reduction to a class that can dump its threat every 30s instead of added ap is wasteful and redundent. forgive my spelling.

Again - we should not plan on a hunter forgeting to FD. Just as we shouldn't plan on a mage forgeting to re sheep. We should plan on everyone doing their job as they are supposed to and correct problems as they come up.

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Drizztdeurde
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Post#51 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:47 pm

WoW we started an interesting thread :)
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Brulan
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Post#52 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:48 pm

Thats what blizzard gets for taking down the servers for maintenance.

Plus... theorycrafting ftw.
No.

70
Ecnailla
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Post#53 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:50 pm

lets riot.
where is blizz located?

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Irreverant
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Post#54 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:53 pm

Most of these end game bosses are very aggro sensitive especially VR so pushing dps is not an option. VR drops aggro on the target with the main threat every so often during the fight and moves on to the target with the second dps on the charts. During this fight all of our hunters AFTER FDing still end up climbing to the top with salv on. I believe without salv and with might that we couldnt FD fast enough and would be too much of a risk.

At the end of the day it doesnt really matter people are gonna think what they wanna think and do what they wanna do all im saying is I want salv. Even if i have to take the 10 min one.
When Blizzard created hunters they gave them twice as many ways to fuck up as any other class.

70
Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#55 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:01 pm

it moves to the 2nd slot on the dps chart or the threat chart? Pretty sure its 2nd threat - and if you have MDs rolling on the off tank and you are FD evertime it is up, you should be able to push your dps as hard as you want.

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Brulan
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Post#56 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:14 pm

Just for clarification sakes... VR does not drop aggro on the MT.

His pounding will reduce the aggro the MT has (similar to Ony's wing buffet for whatever the hell it was called)

Its all semantics though I suppose.
No.

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Irreverant
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Post#57 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:48 pm

*gives up*
When Blizzard created hunters they gave them twice as many ways to fuck up as any other class.

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110
Elvenbane
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Post#58 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:06 pm

Personally, there is and only ever has been 1 argument for a Hunter having Might over Salvation. That's bumping up the tanks threat with Misdirect. However, I don't feel that the risk is worth the reward. Mages can dump 100% of their threat and IB if they do pull, Warlocks can dump 50% of their threat, but you don't see them running around without Salvation. Why should any of our top damage classes be any different? As for popping FD every time it's cooled, I personally think you'll see a larger dps drop from that over not having might, and no I haven't done any TC to support that, that's just my opinion.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. As a raid leader it is not worth it to me to risk a full or partial raid wipe due to one person's threat. If EVER an FD is resisted with the way our Hunters are currently using the skill, it will result in them pulling the boss, and like Tach mentioned god knows howmany posts back, healers do get their faces melted during the time it takes the boss to run the 30yrds to take your face off and get back to the MT. So I'll make this extremely clear: A slight DPS increase for Hunters is NOT worth the risk of getting a healer killed, end of story.

If you guys are so obsessed about the buff, lose 1 of your other ones. Kings, Wisdom I don't care. I am well aware that you guys know how to play your class, that's not the dispute here, and I know that 9 times out of 10 FD works fine. It's the times it doesn't that I care about and that I don't want to see. There is no reason, once we understand a fight to ever pull off a boss for anyone (myself especially) and as a raid leader I need to look at the raid as a whole not just the Hunters.
It's the thought that counts, not how many people die because of it.
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Kendalh
Demon Hunter
Posts: 738

Post#59 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:17 pm

This is where I have the most trouble. How big of a difference is 6.04% to overall dps? To my uneducated guess, that doesn't seem bad. Yeah, it's lower but not bad.

I understand what you are saying Ec and we are working towards a happy median. Right now, it seems we have a problem on the VR fight (which is still new) with aggro. If the hunters did have might, would we have still hit the enrage timer? I would think so, but no clue until we do it again under different circumstances.

It feels like (which is probably wrong) that we have been fighting with hunters pulling off of MTs for a couple months, if not longer. Until we can figure out what is causing this (either bad rotation, not enough FDs, not caring), I'll be taking a few extra steps to figure out what is better for our hunters, Salv or Might.

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100
Lealla
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Post#60 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:17 pm

@Ecnailla: Blizzard is in Anaheim, California (iirc)
@Irreverant: Void Reaver's knockback reduces the target's threat by 25%. If that reduction is sufficient to push someone else over the 110% (melee) or 130% (ranged) threshold required to pull aggro, off he goes. The knockback can miss or be parried/dodged.

Technically, to avoid pulling, melee DPS should stay below 82.5% of the current tank's threat, while ranged DPS should stay below 97.5% of the current tank's threat. All DPS must also remain below the threat of the offtank who is second to the MT. If you are higher than either of those values, you may pull if the MT takes a knockback.

Ideally, you should always try to be below the threat of all the offtanks. In practice, that's not always possible, which is why we use MDs to keep the offtanks' threat up.

All issues of buffs and class abilities aside, those are the rules to live (or die) by.

On a personal note, while I'm not intimately familiar with Hunter mechanics, I can say that I generate a very great deal of threat, and with no threat dump ability, I don't have the luxury of asking not to have Salvation. Going full-out DPS in the VR fight, while dodging Arcane Orbs, I managed to avoid pulling aggro while still coming in #1 on the charts. The primary reason I was able to do this was because I didn't die. If all DPS remain alive throughout the fight, we can easily beat VR inside his enrage timer. To me, that's a surer recipe for success than betting on one class to properly manage its threat.
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