spirit, and how its aggrivating (at least to me)

Mage class discussion.

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Lealla
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Post#1 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:57 am

It's okay, according to the latest theorycraft, Feral Druids and HaT Rogues will be owning everyone's faces, so you might as well go back to being a water dispenser. There's still plenty of room for things to change before the patch launches, though.

To Blizzard's credit, they've been trying to "fix" Spirit for ages. At first, it was useful only for those classes with a Meditation-style talent. Then, to make it more attractive, Blizz started pumping it full of secondary effects, but then they turned around and made a lot of regeneration dependent on Intellect. The situation now is that nobody really knows what Spirit is for or how they are supposed to value it compared to other stats.

From an itemization perspective, Blizzard benefits from Spirit in that it allows more diversity of gear. Otherwise, you end up in a situation where every caster item has int, stamina, spellpower, and two of haste/hit/crit. Blizzard wants us making tradeoffs in our gear choices and they want competition for "best in slot" items.

In terms of which stats benefit whom, here's kind of a breakdown...
Plate Phys DPS: Str, Agi, Sta, Crit, Hit, Haste, Attack Power, Armor Pen, Expertise
Mail Phys DPS: Agi, Sta, Int, Crit, Hit, Haste, Attack Power, Armor Pen, Expertise
Leather Phys DPS: Agi, Sta, Crit, Hit, Haste, Attack Power, Armor Pen, Expertise
Caster DPS: Sta, Int, Spi*, Crit, Hit, Haste, Spell Power
* Except Shaman

So really, stat-wise, we've got a lot less on our plate to worry about - seven stats vs. nine. Dump Spirit and we're down to only six.

In the future, Blizzard has talked about phasing Spirit out entirely in favor of Intellect. This is not set in stone, however, just speculation.
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Ginxx
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Post#2 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:09 am

Yea thats all well and good but you are forgetting: WE'VE GOT SPIRIT YES WE DO! WE'VE GOT SPIRIT HOW BOUT YOU!? If they get rid of it we cant yell that at warriors anymore and LOL!!!

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Gnomerman
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Post#3 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:02 pm

lealla, what you've said is true, however, with the exception of int for hunters ( i think) all of those stats directly increase their damage output.

however, for physical dps, they weight their stats based on what they do. hit and expertise are good because they take miss and dodge off the attack table. those 2 stats are the same as hit for casters (and penetration if they have resistance). i know, one doesn't substitute for the other, but they both take a non hit (dodge or miss) and turn it into a hit of some type.

the thing that is bothering me, mainly, is that the new gear, from what i've seen, is going from ilvl 213 and 226 to 232 and 239 ( i think), and the majority of those stat increases, is going to spirit. the problem im seeing, is as it stands, is that the gear in 3.1 will give mages the least damage output increase out of any class. which is effectivly a nerf.

the one thing i've always stressed, which most people tend to ignore, is that there are 3 ways for blizzard to dictate how much damage any given class can do. one is talents, two is abilities, and 3 is the gear avaiable to them. EVERYONE pays attention to the first 2 in the patch changes etc, but almost everyone forgets about the third one.

wait, i know a way to make it fair to everyone. make it so spirit increases how much rage a warrior generates when they hit, how fast a rogues energy regens, same with dk's runic power. lets give hunters and shaman a use for spirit. ok, great, now lets put piles of it on their gear!!! that is a wonderful plan.

oh wait, that would be a nerf...

this is what im getting at. granted, im okay with spirit for mana regen, and i think it is hinting at the type of changes to mana we will be having. BoW and the totem not stacking is removing almost 100 mp5 (to mages with mage armor that will be 100% while casting unless your frost, but they have obsurd mana efficiency).
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Lealla
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Post#4 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:25 pm

The itemization for Ulduar gear is still incomplete, Gnomer, but all stats should be going up, not just Spirit. Spell power is still our biggest stat, and in terms of its direct benefit to DPS, it gives a lot more value per point than AP.

Weapon DPS ~= AP/14
Spell DPS ~= SP/3.5

In both cases, talents and abilities cause these figures to scale significantly, so they're only very rough baseline approximations.

Also, regarding expertise, hit, etc., remember that melee needs a lot more of those ratings to get their miss rate down to zero.

Lastly, Ulduar10 gear will have a base item level of 213, and Ulduar25 will be 226. Add +6 levels for weapons (apparently) and +13 for end boss/hard mode drops. For a raid guild fully outfitted in T7.25 gear, Ulduar will provide upgrades, yes, but not earthshakingly awesome ones.
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Gnomerman
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Post#5 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:57 pm

i understand what your saying lealla, but most mele do more than 50% of their damage from special abilities, based on attack power (bloodthirst anyone?) not necessarily weapon damage. im aware that ap-dps is less than sp-dps for casters, however, its itemized that way.

and most physical soft cap at capping specials, and hunters/pallies only need 8% minus talents/FF. so hit for mele, and hit for casters, as far as a raiding environment is comparible.

however, compare

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40396

and
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?item=45437

upgrading nets me
30 spellpower
37 spirit
1 int
15 crit
-38 haste
5 stam

is it an upgrade? yes, of course it is. however, its a tiny upgrade

the sad part is, the weapon is a sword, and 1/3 sp users who use swords gets a damage bonus to spirit, and one of them doens't get anything at all. so, i blame itemization, unless they are changing mages to get more than some regen from spirit. which if its the case, good, i won't have to compete with ken on gear anymore.

wtb gear where you can allocate the ilvl points. oh wait... thats what sockets are for.
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There is more to life than pew pew you know, like staying out of the fire so you can live to pew pew another day

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Lealla
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Post#6 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:37 pm

Blizzard also said they intentionally do not make every piece perfectly optimal. By putting Spirit on that sword, they are basically saying, "Mages come take it, this is yours." However, they want room to grow and introduce new items that are better by way of stat allocation without grossly inflated item levels. To illustrate my point, there are several BIS items in the current game that are not the highest ilvl for their slot.

I would expect that the Hard Mode drops would be better itemized, along with the Tier 8 sets, than general drops. And we still have at least one and probably two more raid tiers to go after Ulduar...
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Gnomerman
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Post#7 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:26 pm

see, i agree that we need a way to balance stat inflation and content scaling. you make the upgrades from tier lvl to tier lvl, then you increase the gearing curve, and so guilds that start late have a severe disadvantage, where as the guilds that farm content for months have an advantage.

im of the opinion that better gear should make the content easier, however, it shouldn't be 100% required (granted you shouldnt' be able to stroll through ulduar in quest greens).

however, not to sound like too much QQ. T6 mage gear in BC had piles of int and spirit on it. if you were fire or frost (raiding frost lol) spirit was 100% useless to you. only arcane mages wanted it for mana regen. warlocks, however, didn't have spirit on their gear, so they got more stam, spellpower int and awesomeness.

i personally don't mind spirit, i just think there needs to be a way to balance the classes with it. either all casters get a bonus (besides mp5) from spirit, or only healers should get it. that is my opinion. so either optimize spirit gear for healers and non spirit gear for dps users.


i have a feeling we will be sharding a lot of cloth pieces in ulduar. idk about everyone else, but people will be hard pressed to drop even 5 dkp on an item that gives them no more spellpower, and 10 more spirit and int, especially if there are a small handful of well optimized gear pieces that we are all looking to aquire.
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There is more to life than pew pew you know, like staying out of the fire so you can live to pew pew another day

Kendalh
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Post#8 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:18 pm

Molten Armor now causes 170 Fire damage when hit for all ranks (Up from 75/130/170) and also increases your critical strike rating by 25% of your spirit.

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Gnomerman
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Post#9 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:00 am

WHAT?.... i <3 blizzard
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There is more to life than pew pew you know, like staying out of the fire so you can live to pew pew another day

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