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Gem choices for Oathkeeper's Helm - Clan YaWA - You and Whose Army

Gem choices for Oathkeeper's Helm

Paladin class discussion.

Moderator: Demon Hunters

Stask
Posts: 1804

Gem choices for Oathkeeper's Helm

Post#1 » Sun May 25, 2008 12:57 pm

Ok, as all of you should know, I just got for Laivindil's tanking set and I'm wondering how I should gem it. Should I forget about the spell hit socket bonus and just go for 3 big stamina gems? And if not, what are my gemming alternatives?

EDIT: Keep in mind, I haven't specced to prot *just* yet, but I will soon. I got the macro from EJ that tells me how much Avoidance I have; I have about 35.4 or so when I know I need around 102. And I haven't even respecced yet to Prot, so I know that number is artificially low at the moment; it should increase once I respec to prot (and test it out with having both 5/5 Anticipation and Holy Shield active).

And I'm still trying to decide on an optimum tanking spec; I noticed that Virek's and Brendore's spec are both 0/49/12 but their spec dont match exactly. Further discussion is needed.

EDIT No. 2: Here's . I made a point to log out in Laiv's tank set, but if you view this and Laiv is wearing his ret set, just hit me up in game and I'll show you my tank set online. Comments are welcome.
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan

Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

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Arlan
Posts: 541

Post#2 » Sun May 25, 2008 4:25 pm

IMO 4 spell hit isn't that great of a socket bonus, you get 3% from talents, and you also have some on your SSO mace. Socket bonuses are worth taking when you get stam or mitigation from them. Your mitigation is going to be a bit higher with holy shield/anticipation/deflection. The tanking libram is huge in helping reach 102.4% mitigation, so get the tanking libram asap. You aren't going to get there without badge/raid gear though. The first thing you want to do though is reach 490 def. 12k health and 490 def is generally the agrered upon minimum for tanking kara/heroics (heroics could probably be done with less with good cc) and that's what you should aim for. Enduring talasite gems (4 def/6 stam) are usually dirt cheap on the AH and will help you reach 490 def, after that you can gem for stam or mitigation. If you are going for socket bonuses, in yellow sockets I would put enduring talasite, blue sockets +12 stam, and red sockets +8 dodge. Your rings have a decent amount of stam, but remember that pally tanks generate pretty much 0 threat from melee, until you get some tanking rings/trinkets look into some with spell damage on them. Buddha runs with caster rings most of the time iirc.

Here's a few items you might want to look into getting:
http://thottbot.com/i30381
http://thottbot.com/i30400
http://thottbot.com/i29173
of course the ssc/tk crafted belt/boots.

When possible avoid warrior tanking gear with +strength since it is a wasted stat for tankadins. As you are right now you could go spec prot and start tanking normal 5 mans. Arlan has sucessfully tanked every non-heroic as holy. Eventually you are just going to have to spec prot and get your feet wet.

Edit: for items you think you might be replacing soon, http://thottbot.com/i34330 is a cheap way to enchant them. Note that they DO work on head/shoulder slots. If there aren't any on the AH, my shaman can make them.

Edit 2: Your head/chest/gloves are probably the best items you will find pre-kara. Your shield is on par with anything in kara, I would put the shield block enchant on it. Work on KoT rep for the legs. http://thottbot.com/i32660 is a decent upgrade to your SSO mace. I also see that you do have the tanking libram.

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Gnomerman
Posts: 1814

Post#3 » Sun May 25, 2008 5:34 pm

depending on your mitigation throwing a 5 spell dmg 6 stam gem in your red sockets might help with your threat gen :)

Stask
Posts: 1804

Post#4 » Sun May 25, 2008 5:58 pm

No joy on the Crystalforged Sword on the AH just yet, and I dunno if it's worth farming for such a small drop rate in BEM.

I need to continue comparing prot specs before I feel ready to respec. I'm noticing some deviation between Virek's and Brendore's prot spec; I need to look at Buddha and Arlan's spec as well. Stay tuned.

And yeah, Arlan, the moment I got enough badges after getting the SoC badge libram of Divine Judgement, I snatched up the Libram of repentance because I know that's prolly the best tanking Libram in the game (or at least the best one I can access without doing raids).
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan



Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

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Arlan
Posts: 541

Post#5 » Sun May 25, 2008 6:06 pm

I was in a hurry to respec and messed up when spending my talent points. I should have dropped imp. HoJ and stoicism and put those 5 points in ardent defender, otherwise that is my usual tanking spec. Not worth it spending the 50g to fix when I will probably be going holy again for next weeks raids.

Edit: I can also make http://thottbot.com/i23538.

Stask
Posts: 1804

Post#6 » Sun May 25, 2008 6:29 pm

Bracers of the green fortress? Nice bracers, but ugh, time to farm more Primal life again...

Where do the plans for those drop, btw? I wouldnt mind being able to make them myself. Do these plans drop only from random trash? Bleagh, 0.0% drop rate FTL...
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan



Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

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Arlan
Posts: 541

Post#7 » Sun May 25, 2008 7:23 pm

Bracers of the green fortress are like a 0.000000001% random world drop. I was killing stuff in blades edge and poof, there they were. Just a lucky drop for me.

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Lealla
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Post#8 » Sun May 25, 2008 10:54 pm

As I said in the other threads, your socket choices for a Protection Paladin should be:

Red socket: Glowing Nightseye
Yellow socket: Enduring Talasite
Blue socket: Enduring Talasite (up to Def cap), Solid Star of Elune (after Def cap)


Stask
Posts: 1804

Post#9 » Mon May 26, 2008 5:47 am

"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan



Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

User avatar
Arlan
Posts: 541

Post#10 » Mon May 26, 2008 1:46 pm


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Lealla
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Post#11 » Wed May 28, 2008 4:06 pm

Sorry for the "late" reply, Arlan. Each type of stat has a value to a tank, and it's not always as simple as "X > Y > Z". For a Protection Paladin, here's how it breaks out, roughly. [Long post alert]

Defense Target: 490 (negates critical hits)
Avoidance Target: 102.4% (negates crushing blows)
Avoidance formula: 5%* + [Defense Miss %] + [Dodge %] + [Parry %] + [Shield Block %]

* I always thought this was 1.4%, but EJ says otherwise.

For "pure" avoidance, leave Block out of the above equation. This comes into play in the following situations: against mobs that deal elemental melee damage (Hydross, etc.); against special abilities that aren't considered "resisted" when you block them.

Holy Shield provides 30% Block when active. Against a single opponent you should seldom run out of charges, but due to the cooldown and latency there's an unavoidable interval between when it fades and refreshes in which you can get crushed. Include Holy Shield (plus the badge Libram) in your avoidance calculations.

Redoubt provides 30% Block when active, but its random nature means you cannot rely on it to become crush-immune. Ironically, it is most likely to be active when AoE tanking, and mob packs are not boss-level and don't crush. Do not include Redoubt in your avoidance calculations.

For general purposes, the formula you should follow is: Defense to target, then Avoidance to target (using Shield Block as much as possible), then get your Stamina up. Don't be afraid to use Warrior tank gear but remember that you need spell damage to generate threat. (Paladin tanking gear is well supplied with spell damage.) As you graduate to better gear, you will replace some of your Shield Block with Dodge; as long as you stay avoidance capped, Dodge is generally superior. Just don't go too crazy; a lot of Paladin threat generation is block-based.


Defense
Advantages: applies to everything: Miss, Dodge, Parry, Block, as well as reducing critical hits. It's the only stat that directly affects enemy Miss chance.
Disadvantages: after the 490 target to be crit-immune, you get slightly more value per point from individual stats rather than from Defense as a whole.

Dodge
Advantages: better rating ratio than Parry, effective when disarmed
Disadvantages: none; it's the best Avoidance stat

Parry
Advantages: your next attack after a parry is faster, improving threat generation
Disadvantages: more expensive than Dodge, cannot use when disarmed

Shield Block
Advantages: more than twice as cheap as Dodge, making it the ideal stat to reach your avoidance cap; also improves threat generation due to Holy Shield and Blessing of Sanctuary procs
Disadvantages: blocked attacks still deal damage, so it is not a "true" avoidance stat. Worthless against mobs that deal elemental melee damage instead of physical.

Block Value
Advantages: improves mitigation for blocked attacks. For an avoidance-capped tank, all attacks that do not miss and are not dodged or parried should be blocked.
Disadvantages: Paladins gain no threat generation benefits from SBV, unlike Warriors. Worthless against mobs that deal elemental melee damage.

Spell Damage
Advantages: increases threat generation
Disadvantages: doesn't keep you from dying
Note: 300 is a good number for pre-Kara tanking; 400 for Prince/Gruul/Mag; and 500+ for SSC/TK/ZA. This is in your base gear.

Hit Rating (Cap: 8.6%)
Advantages: increases threat generation by making your melee attacks more likely to land (and by extension makes Seals more likely to proc). Affects Righteous Defense (taunt), Avenger's Shield, Hammmer of Wrath, Seal of Blood (reportedly).
Disadvantages: lots of Paladin abilities are considered spells

Spell Hit Rating (Cap: 16%)
Advantages: increases threat generation by making your spells more likely to land. Affects Consecration, most Seals, all damaging Judgements, Exorcism, Holy Wrath, Holy Shield, Retribution Aura, and Blessing of Sanctuary.
Disadvantages: doesn't help melee attacks hit (see above)

Stamina/Health
Advantages: keeps you from dying; damage spikes are what kill most tanks, so the more Stamina you have, the better
Disadvantages: doesn't help you generate threat or avoid attacks that have undesirable status effects

Intellect/Mana
Advantages: sustained threat generation
Disadvantages: when you are MT, you get most of your mana from being healed anyway


So, what does all this mean? You need different sets of stats for different situations.

AoE tanking: Spell Damage and Block % are key. The more you block, the more threat you generate, but Consecration is still your main AoE threat ability. You need a decent amount of Stamina, but not as much as a MT. Shield Block Value improves mitigation and reduces the strain on your healers.

MT melee boss: Must be crit and crush immune. Stamina and avoidance are your secondary goals. Against traditional tank and spank bosses, you'll have no trouble generating threat unless you go overboard on Dodge/Parry or have critically low spell damage. In general, the faster the boss hits (not harder), the more threat you generate.

Off-tanking: Spell damage and Intellect are needed to be able to keep up with threat generation. You won't be taking as many hits, so you will have mana issues. Keep a stack of pots on hand for this situation. Depending on the fight, though, you may be tanking the boss yourself or eating secondary attacks, so you may just use your MT set unless it's very low on Intellect.

Elemental boss: This one is hurty for Paladins. Fortunately, they can't crush. Unfortunately, you can't block their attacks, so you lose a major component of threat generation - plus, your core mitigation is not as good as a Warrior's. Stack health, as much non-block avoidance as possible while staying crit-immune, and whatever resistance stat may be required.



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