WotLK Paladin Talents and Abilities Review

Paladin class discussion.

Moderator: Demon Hunters

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#16 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:13 pm

I can handle dropping Reckoning, although it hurts - you have to remember that you not only get the extra physical attacks with it, but also Seal and Judgement procs.

I've also been thinking about Divine Guardian and I have to admit that it does have one severe drawback, which is its use with the revamped Divine Protection. As it is, DP is designed as a shield wall for Paladin tanks, but combined with Divine Guardian, it could easily get a main tank killed in short order. I think Blizzard is going to have to remove Divine Guardian's effect on Divine Protection (while leaving the Divine Shield effect) for it to be a viable raid talent.
Image
Image

User avatar
Obanswrath
Posts: 458

Post#17 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:31 pm

Lealla wrote:I can handle dropping Reckoning, although it hurts - you have to remember that you not only get the extra physical attacks with it, but also Seal and Judgement procs.


yeah, but i do not use it now and my threat is fine, especially when i am paying attention (yes most of the time i half ass tank, just because I can get away with it most of the time) because of all the threat i get from blocking and consecrate etc.... reckoning to me is kinda overkill (please ignore my current spec, i think i was in a rush and screwed it up, I just looked at my current spec and was like wtf was i smoking, most of the time except for a few points it is the same as virek's though i am going to drop some points from def and throw them into PoJ for fun i think)
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#18 » Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:32 pm

MMO Champion put up another major update to the Paladin mechanics in WotLK. I shall endeavor to elucidate with ineluctible eloquence. My favorites are bolded.

Talents/Ability changes
  • Consecration now scales with attack power and spell power.
  • Divine Protection now reduces all damage taken by 50% and increases time between attacks by 100%.
  • Exorcism mana cost reduced and now scales with attack power and spell power.
  • Eye for an Eye now reflects 10/20% damage from all critical hits.
  • Fanaticism now increases chance to critically hit by 5/10/15/20/25%.
  • Forbearance duration increased to 3 minutes.
  • Improved Blessing of Might increased to 10/20/30/40/50%.
  • Judgement has been replaced with 3 new spells; Judgement of Light, Judgement of Wisdom, and Judgement of Justice. All Judgement spells are considered ranged attacks for purposes of how they hit and how they critically hit. All cause damage based on attack power and spell power.
    • Judgement of Light now heals based on the Paladin’s attack power and spell power, the effect can not trigger more than once ever 4 seconds.
    • Judgement of Justice will no longer prevent Fear effects, but will only prevent NPCs from fleeing (e.g. at low health).
    • Judgement of Wisdom now restores mana based on the Paladin’s attack power and spell power, the effect can not trigger more than once every 4 seconds.
  • Precision has been removed.
  • Pursuit of Justice reduced to 2 ranks for 8/15% movement increase and 1/2% less chance to be hit by spells.
  • Righteous Defense no longer costs mana and the global cooldown has been removed.
  • Sacred Duty now also reduces the cooldown of Divine Protection.
  • All Seals have been reduced to 1 rank and now cost 14% of base mana. The duration has been increased to 2 minutes and are no longer consumed when a Judgement spell is cast. The effects can be triggered from all weapon based special abilities.
    • Seal of Blood now increases Judgement damage by 45% of weapon damage.
    • Seal of Command now increases Judgement damage by 30% of weapon damage, 60% on stunned targets.
    • Seal of the Crusader has been removed. The effects of Judgement of the Crusader have been folded into all relevant abilities.
    • Seal of Righteousness deals damage based on weapons peed plus an amount based on attack power and spell power, increases Judgement damage by 25%.
    • Seal of Vengeance damage over time effect duration increased to 18 seconds and now applies its effect on every swing, causes damage based on attack power and spell power, and increases Judgement damage by 10% per stack of the damage over time effect.
  • Summon Warhorse and Summon Charger mana cost removed and no longer causes a global cooldown.
  • Vindication reduced to 2 ranks for 10/20% attribute reduction.

Seal/Judgement mechanics
Based on my reading of the above changes, here's a basic description of how the new Seal/Judgement mechanics will work (this is a copy of my response in another thread).
  1. The original Judgement spell is gone.
  2. You now have three different Judgement spells: Light, Wisdom, Justice.
  3. Casting one of those Judgements will deal Holy damage and place the appropriate debuff on the target.
  4. If you have an active Seal, the Judgement will do additional damage depending on the Seal. For example, Command causes 30% extra damage or 60% if the target is stunned or incapacitated.
  5. Seals now have a 2 min duration and Judgements are now on the GCD.

As a direct consequence, Paladins will be able to remove some spells from their action bars and consolidate Judgements quite nicely into a single macro. Here's one possibility, and what Brendore will be using in WotLK:

Code: Select all

#showtoolip
/cast [mod:alt] Judgement of Justice; [mod:shift] Judgement of Light; Judgement of Wisdom
Image

Image

Stask
Posts: 1804

Post#19 » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:29 pm

I see that I have ALOT of retraining to do to relearn how to play a pally in WotLK.

And I'll really have to learn how to alt-click and shift-click now. I've always managed to avoid that but no longer, it seems...

Pardon me while I QQ a bit. *runs from room*
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan

Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#20 » Sun Aug 03, 2008 5:47 pm

Like I posted in my other thread, I plan to have one macro for Judgements and another for Seals. Here's how I think my Seal macro will look.

(Protection version)

Code: Select all

#showtooltip
/cast [mod:alt] Seal of the Martyr; [noparty,mod:shift][party,nomod] Seal of Vengeance; Seal of Righteousness

(Retribution version)

Code: Select all

#showtooltip
/cast [mod:alt] Seal of Righteousness; [noparty,mod:shift][party,nomod] Seal of the Martyr; Seal of Command

Of course, the Retribution macro setup could vary depending on whichever of Martyr (Blood) or Command ends up being superior for raid DPS in WotLK.

Edit: I thought about doing a combined macro based on the equipped weapon, but it's a pain the ass and probably goes over the character limit.
Image

Image

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#21 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:30 am

Some new updates: Divine Guardian no longer affects Divine Protection (thank God), and Sacred Duty now does affect Divine Protection.

Crusader Strike does not refresh Judgements (boo) anymore. However, with the new Judgement system it's no longer as difficult to maintain them.
Image

Image

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#22 » Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:16 pm

Based on the latest talent changes...

Here's my planned grinding spec for Brendore, starting at level 70.

Here's my idea for a maxed out level 80 PvE Retadin.
Image

Image

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#23 » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:53 am

Okay, I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Protection tree once the 3.0 patch comes out before the expansion. Do you go for Avoidance with Deflection, or do you go for the most mitigation possible withShield Specialization, Spell Warding, and Ardent Defender?

Inquiring minds want to know. I stand by my choices in the Retribution tree, FYI.
Image

Image

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#24 » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:31 pm

The latest build (8926) incorporates some dramatic changes to the Paladin trees. As usual, I'm concentrating on Protection and Retribution, since those are what I'm familiar with. Someone who knows Holy should comment on that tree.

Protection
  • Blessing of Kings: moved to tier 1, increases stats by 2% (from 10%)
  • Improved Blessing of Kings: tier 1, improves Blessing of Kings by 2/4/6/8%.
  • Redoubt: moved to tier 9, now only 3 ranks, incorporates Shield Specialization as well as the original Redoubt.
  • Anticipation: moved to tier 2
  • Shield Specialization: removed, rolled into Redoubt
  • Spell Warding: removed, rolled into Guarded by the Light
  • Holy Shield: Now has 8 charges base, additional threat removed
  • Improved Holy Shield: removed
  • Avenger's Shield: deals more damage and is instant cast.
  • Shield of the Templar: changed to increase the damage of your Holy Shield, Avenger's Shield and Shield of Righteousness spells by 10/20/30%.
  • Combat Expertise: changed to 3 ranks, increases Stamina, Expertise, and chance to critically hit by 2/4/6%.
  • Guarded by the Light: now also reduces spell damage taken by 3/6%.
  • Hammer of the Righteous: now does 120% of weapon damage (from 100%), no longer generates additional threat.

Retribution
  • Deflection: moved to tier 1
  • Benediction: now affects all instant cast spells, effect reduced to 2/4/6/8/10% (from 3% per rank).
  • Improved Blessing of Might: moved to tier 2, 2 ranks for 12/25% increase.
  • Pursuit of Justice: now reduces duration of Disarm effects by 25/50% instead of reducing chance to be hit by spells.
  • Seal of Command: Judgement damage reduced.
  • Sanctified Seals: moved to tier 4, now reduces chance for Seals to be dispelled by 33/66/100%.
  • Crusade: now also increases total damage by 1% per rank, in addition to its previous effect.
  • Improved Retribution Aura: moved to tier 6
  • Divine Purpose (tier 5): Reduces chance to be hit by spells by 2/4% and gives Hand of Freedom a 50/100% chance to remove stun effects.
  • Vengeance: reduced to 3 ranks (1/2/3%), now stacks up to 3 times.
  • Judgements of the Wise: now also restores 20% of maximum mana when Judgement is cast.
  • The Art of War: moved to tier 7, increases critical strike damage of Judgement, Crusader Strike, and Divine Storm by 10/20% and when these abilities critically hit, the cast time of your next Flash of Light spell is reduced by 0.75/1 sec.
  • Sheath of Light: moved to tier 9


There are also some skill changes, primarily that most Seals and Judgements have had their damage reduced, and Righteous Defense is now on a 10 second cooldown, has no mana cost, and does not cause a global cooldown.

Lastly, Divine Plea now restores 25% mana over 10 sec, but reduces healing done by your spells by 50%. It appears to no longer be channeled and has a 1 minute (!!) cooldown.


Analysis
Well, Blizzard has really worked to consolidate and reorganize the trees here. Kings got majorly reworked: you no longer have to spend 11 points in Prot to get it, but it costs 5 points to max out. I'm also glad that Shield Spec got merged with Redoubt: those were always weak talents by themselves, and making Redoubt no longer a tier 1 talent (and reducing its cost) frees up a lot of room. Similarly, folding Spell Warding into Guarded by the Light gives some much needed value to deep Prot, and the addition of crit chance to Combat Expertise helps improve Prot's DPS.

Divine Plea is now an instant cast, usable once per minute, and has absolutely no penalty for Protection and Retribution builds, so it has finally become that much needed self-mana regen tool that those two specs have always needed.

Lastly, by moving Deflection up in the Retribution tree, you no longer waste talent points getting there, especially if you decide you don't need Benediction (itself dramatically improved by affecting nearly every Paladin ability).

At a first glance, this is the level 70 build I'd take. With another 10 points to play with, this is one level 80 PvE build; the only real question is whether to swap Benediction for Reckoning.


On the Retribution side, there's also been some much needed consolidation. For one thing, you can get all useful Prot talents with 10 points (rather than 11). For another, there's no longer a painful choice between Improved Blessing of Might and Benediction at tier 1. Imp BoM is quite skippable now, but at only 2 points it's also not too costly to grab. Pursuit of Justice is now even more clearly aimed at PvP'ers, especially with the spell hit reduction moved to Divine Purpose.

At deeper levels, we see that Judgements of the Wise is now the mana return ability that Retadins were hoping for. It's also far enough down that Holy Paladins won't automatically spec for it. Further, dropping Sheath of Light to tier 9 puts it out of reach of most Holy specs as well, something that was causing quite a bit of stir among theorycrafters. The Art of War has regained its place as an awesome DPS talent, plus there's some healing synergy as you can get 0.5 sec FoL's off of it.

Here's my level 70 Ret build idea. There's a lot of compromise here, as you're obviously missing out on Kings, Crusade, PoJ, and Divine Purpose, but it'll still do for maximizing DPS. Also, since Crusade got buffed, a variation of this build would take 2/5 Divine Strength and 3/3 Crusade. With 10 more points, I'd do something like this level 80 build, taking the best of all the options being offered. The only real question here is whether, having taken Kings, it's worthwhile to drop Imp BoM for Pursuit of Justice - the answer really depends on whether you can count on raiding with a Warrior with Improved Battle Shout.

The best part about this new beta build is that it makes it possible to get fully viable level 80 PvE Protection and Retribution specs without agonizing over more than a handful of talent points.
Image

Image

User avatar
Virek
Demon Hunter
Posts: 249

Post#25 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:24 pm

correction. shield spec was rolled into redoubt not reckoning. redoubt is now 3 ranks. reckoning was improved to any blocked damage or damage taken has a 10% chance to grant an extra attack.

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#26 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:41 pm

Huh, I could've sworn I meant to type Redoubt.
Image

Image

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#27 » Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:55 am

So... I got on PTRs yesterday for about a half-hour, and aside from dealing with the crushing lag, I got to test out the new Retribution stuff on some normal mobs in Nagrand. There's an awful lot of posting about how disgustingly OP Ret is now, and I wanted to see for myself.

Even with a very small sample size to play with and no addons to monitor my damage output, I'd say that my DPS more than doubled. Plus, after killing 5 mobs, I had full health and mana. I never had to go through a full damage rotation on non-elites because my targets died before any of my cooldowns were up. One Judgement and one Crusader Strike were enough to finish off everything.

Oh, and Divine Storm is sick - I decided to try it out on a single mob and it's basically like Whirlwind except that it deals Holy damage (so no armor mitigation). 2500 crit on an air elemental (!!), 500 of which healed me.

I never even got to try out the free FoL from Art of War, but I tried out some Holy Lights on myself and was healing for about 1.2K more than I get on live, thanks to the AP->Spellpower conversion. My base AP was also about 100 higher.

I had to Alt-F4 in Nagrand because the server died from lag, but I look forward to some more off-night testing later this week.

Some other observations:
* The new mount/pet storage is kind of cool, except that it's a pain in the ass to cast spells from it in macros. I figured out how my Charger worked but couldn't get my Purple Riding Nether Ray fixed. For now, I'm clicking on it from the mount interface.
* To add mounts/pets, you have to right-click on the object, which "teaches" you the spell. Currently, the items remain in your inventory after use, so you have to destroy them manually. It feels very awkward and I hope the interface improves.
* Activating a mount from the mount storage seems to be on the GCD, despite Blizzard's claims otherwise.
* "Where did my mounts go?" is the single most frequently asked question on the PTR.
* The command to bring up mount storage is Shift-P.

* The new badge/mark/whatever storage system is awesome. However, on the PTRs it's currently bugged so that you only get credit for one stack of each type of item (so if you have more than 200 Badges of Justice, it only credits you for one stack).
* The calendar system is interesting. I wasn't in a guild so I couldn't see if it supports signups (doubtful), but it'll be nice to have our schedule posted for everyone to see.
* It's fun to look at all the Achievements you get credited for initially.

I'll look at the Druid changes later in the week as well. For those of you interested in going on the PTRs yourselves, I've heard that the PvP realm is a lot less laggy.
Image

Image

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#28 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:45 am

Okay, well, the PTR is a lot happier this morning, so I was able to get on and really work Brendore with the 8970 build changes. I'll say this, if those are all the nerfs that are coming Ret's way, I'm not exactly upset.

So far, I can take out groups of 5-8 normal mobs without the slightest sweat, and I utterly nuked the elite giants in Netherstorm - came out with full health and mana. This is the build I've settled on.

I'm going to try bigger elites later to see how much it takes to actually bring me down.

Update: Successfully soloed Levixus.
Update 2: Soloed Ruul the Darkener (barely, needed DS+HL and a LoH).
Update 3: I met Ken online and we 2-manned Durn, Grulloc, Maggoc, and Skulloc, as well as the two Forge Camps in Nagrand (well, some uninvited guests helped on Durn and Skulloc). Then for S&Gs, we ran normal Slave Pens and cleared it in about 40 mins, no wipes, not even any close calls. We probably could have done double or triple pulls, but I was being conservative.

I don't have a working damage meter but I wouldn't be surprised to find Brendore at 1700+ DPS, more than double live. Can I make him my raid main in 3.0? lol
Last edited by Lealla on Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Image

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#29 » Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:50 pm

Some more thoughts on specific changes and abilities.

Heart of the Crusader: Shows up as a separate debuff on mobs now, so you can see when it's up. Very nice.
Retribution Aura/Imp RA: It's doing 180-200 damage a tick now at my current gearing level - more than a 5x increase.
Consecration: Also significantly buffed. 110-120 damage per tick, a good 50% increase over live.
Repentance: The 1 minute duration is insanely awesome. I played with it in SP and it's going to be a wonderfully effective CC ability, limited only by the inability to recast if it breaks.
Judgements of the Wise: Restores about 1.1K mana per Judgement, plus the Replenishment effect, enough to keep me topped off unless I go nuts with Holy Wrath and Exorcism. Replenishment lasts around 10 sec, FYI, for a total of about 2.5% mana regen per application, but I didn't pay enough attention to be sure.
The Art of War: Not only does this provide an instant FoL surprisingly often, but when that FoL crits (around 1.9K on PTR), I get the HoT effect from Sheath of Light. Synergy ftw.
Sanctified Wrath: Hammer of Wrath crits for 3K - about 75% of the time. Instant cast. Doesn't interrupt the swing timer. Yeah.
Divine Storm: This ability is... insane. That's the only way I can think to describe it. It needs a higher cooldown, or higher mana cost, or something. I can hold as many mobs as I like with Consecrate and just annihilate them with DS. I was doing pulls in SP where the other mobs in the group would be at <35% health before I finished off my current target, and I could immediately start hammering them down.

Managing my rotation is a bitch - there are just too many cooldowns to keep track of. Judgement and Crusader Strike at a minimum for single-target dps, then Divine Storm and Consecration in any situation where I don't risk breaking CC. Hammer of Wrath once the mob gets low on health. Exorcism for undead/demons. It got to the point where I was watching my cooldowns as much as the game world.

Oh, and for Holy Paladins, Beacon of Light is sexy. But you knew that already. :-)
Image

Image

User avatar
100
Lealla
Class Leader
Posts: 3797
Contact:

Post#30 » Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:42 pm

Hmm, so... I went on PTRs again today, with Recount and some other DPS addons, and put Brendore through his paces.

I soloed Valzareq the Conqueror and all of his adds.
I ran through Netherwing Mines without going oom or using a pot.
I cleared Strat - both Live and Dead - in just under an hour, including some of the optional bosses - without eating, drinking or potting. I killed Baron Rivendare and Balnazzar in 34 sec each.

My sustained DPS throughout Strat was about 1800 - mind you that this includes all the AoE fun. Single-target in Outland, I was measuring 1000-1100 DPS.

Not bad.

Update: soloed normal Hellfire Ramparts in 24 minutes. I tried Shattered Halls but got stomped; the mobs hit too hard.
Update 2: soloed normal Blood Furnace in about 40 minutes, counting family interruptions.
Image

Image

Return to “Paladin”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron