Your thoughts?

Priest class discussion.

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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624
Location: TX
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WoW character class: Paladin
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WoW character level: 70

Your thoughts?

Post by Ecnailla » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:29 am


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Palehorse
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Post by Palehorse » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:38 pm

I don't know that it proves anything....of the last 2 DnT first-kill screenshots, I saw 3 priests, and 2 of them on armory are specced shadow, while the other one was disc/holy.
The shadow priest Cherrie has 700+ healing and slightly more than that for + damage, while only 134 mana regen (the other shadow priest has similar stats for the healing damage and mana). I think he's been shadow spec awhile, and he was helped five-man Loatheb (naxx). More importantly, I know that at least prior to TBC he was at or near the top 3 or 5 in dps. The non-shadow on the other hand, has close to 1400 healing and 377 mana regen. And I see at least one other non-shadow priest in the guild.

All that the makeup really tells me (in my admittedly limited priest/healing awareness) is that the top guilds like Vampiric Embrace, and it is useful in raids (five man Loatheb!). It also tells me that the shadow priests are good at shifting to the role of backup healer when needed. My understanding of paladins was that they do tend to be more mana efficient with single heals; it's just that priests have good chain/AoE healing and can heal faster (it's been awhile since I touched my lvl 30+ paly though).
Prior to TBC I understood the common wisdom to be that as far as healing goes, top classes with everything being equal, have priests first, druids second, and paladins 3rd. I don't know if TBC has changed much; if it hasn't, then it might be odd that the paladin pwned the priest in healing meter.

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Colder
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Post by Colder » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:45 pm

Haven't read the article, i can't see it at work, but i have three things to say.

First, we are not DnT, we will never be like DnT, nor will we be like Silence or anyone else. If you guys want to be in those guilds then go right ahead, or if you think that you can do a better job leading/directing/or setting up raids, then by all means I will step down and let someone else take the lead.

Second, I am sorry that we can only take 10 people to Kara, and I have done my best to get as many people in there as possible, I think almost everyone that is keyed has had a chance to go. And if some of you feel as though you are being left out on purpose then let me know, and I'll do my best to get you in the raid. Just be aware that there are ten slots open and those 10 slots are as follows:

2 tanks
4 healers (specced) sometimes we can take 3 depending on who it is
4 dps

Lastly, we can't get groups together enough to even get past 4 bosses in Kara in a week, simply because of two factors, Tanks sometimes but most of the time its heals. until we can get that taken care of I don't even see the point of discussion who can do more DPS than who, we have the DPS, and i'm sorry and mages and rogues can't heal.

I'll read the arcticle when I get home.

Cold out.
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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624
Location: TX
WoW character race: Draenei
WoW character class: Paladin
WoW character gender: Male
WoW character level: 70

Post by Ecnailla » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:53 pm

It's not an article - its an open discussion between priests in a post BC world.

With posts like -

"I matched up against a fairly evenly geared paladin the other day and was destroyed by their healing power.

We were both landing about the same size heals, I finished my mana bar and the paladin had 80% mana left. When I emptied my bar he said "oh yeah, and I can wear plate... you should head over to your trainer and spec something useful like shadow"."

and

"The disc/holy trees are just sad. Disc has no real focus, and Stam/SPirit Buffs are not enough to keep to many priest raidin. Holy is good to some point, the AoE heals are nice, but the cost of the heals often leaves you OOM to many times (what good is a healer if he has no mana?) Pally>Priest. Shadow is really nice, and its the best spec because DPS = Mana/Hp regen. Why not?"

with

"funny, weren't we just going back and forth where you were arguing how a priest must spec holy for a group to suceed? seems like you dont even need a priest period :D go spec something useful like, shadow and add some utility to the group :p

btw, druids have always been a better single target healer than priest, where as priests were always a better aoe/group healer than druid. and i guess pally caught up now :)"


but thats just the first 3 posts...


It is 10 pages long and it does have both points of view, so I don’t expect anyone to read it all. It’s just that there is a pretty general feeling between healers that the priest have not scaled as well to 70 and pallys and druids are now better healers. We went from the number one slot at 60 to the number 3 slot at 70. Shadow on the other had has become very desirable because of the benefits such as VT and VE without loosing the utility like shields, dispel magic, shackle and the like.

I have not been in on yawa raid, but I have been told that our pallys are out healing our preists here also. I’m not saying we are DnT or anything- and the discussion mentions them, but by no means is limited to that type of guilds. I just wanted to see what you guys thought about the issue because it is becoming somewhat of an issue for me.

Ecnailla
Posts: 3624
Location: TX
WoW character race: Draenei
WoW character class: Paladin
WoW character gender: Male
WoW character level: 70

Post by Ecnailla » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:04 pm

Colder wrote: and i'm sorry and mages and rogues can't heal.



lol, are you arguing that mages and rogues aren't the best choice for raids since they lack the versatility of off healing? Maybe 2 tanks 3 healer and 5 dps would work if 2 of the dps were cable of assisting healing when needed. I have no desire to lead at this point, but I don’t understand why this type of thinking can’t be applied instead of a cookie cutter approch.

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zephar
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Post by zephar » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:17 pm

I can bandaid?
I crit perception so hard that I could see why people love Cinnamon Toast Crunch.

" I saw a baby [ panda ] sneeze in a video and it telepathicly gave me a bonar. Cosmic Powers "

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Kalianna
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Post by Kalianna » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:23 pm

I have band-aids
Please someone, give me the knowledge to only Blink when I should.

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Csesium
Posts: 294

Post by Csesium » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:23 pm

I have some quotes too.

Also, unlike dps (in most cases) healing is a collective effort, not a single person effort. Different healing classes complement each other. I'd rather have a competent holy priest, holy paladin, resto shaman, and resto druid healing than 4 of one of those classes.

If you take a balanced group of healers to raid and you are having more then 10% of your wipes caused by healing failures then you probably should get new healers instead of whining about a class deficiency. We take 2 priests, 2 pallies, 2 shaman and either a resto druid or another shaman to raid and healing failures on bosses are few and far between.
Being a healer is more about reaction time, mana management, and assigning targets then anything else.

I am heavy disc/holy (34/27) specced (with PI). For most 5 mans and Kharazan, I am usually top or second regardless of pallys/shammy/druids in grp. For Healing:
I have about +1300 heals and 18 percent to Crit with holy spells, inspiration build ( which helps alot for tanks ), abt 10000mana unbuffed and about 6000hp unbuffed. Heals and oom has never been a problem. if you have, have you been over healing? wasting mana? As for DPS:
I was in grp with tank/rogue/pally/lock.. ie. Shadow Lab runs boss fights... a pally healed while i changed to DPS Gear (+600 holy dmg, 18 percent crit), i was just under the lock on DPS.. in fact i did so much DPS that my grp was shocked i am disc/holy build... PI, shadowfiend, mana regen, crit.. who said disc/holy priest could not DPS. I feel that it is all experiece to good heals and great DPS... :) enjoy the class.. I LOVE BEING A PRIEST!!!

Healing styles are different for different classes. If you want your priest to sit back and spam Flash Heal or Greater Heal on a target, or several targets, over and over without leaving the FSR, of COURSE he's gonna be a worse healer than a paladin. Cause that's how a Paladin heals. A good priest heals like a Priest.


I could go on quoting, but reading everything in that thread would be better so you can follow the flow of the conversation. It doesn't matter how the top guild in the world does things; it's that guild, with those specific players, playing those specific classes, with specific specs. We need to find OUR way of playing, our weaknesses and strengths, and right now, our problems are in the number of specced tanks and healers we have available. We never have a problem finding additional dps. My first kara run had the 2 tank, 4 healer, 4 dps layout, and it went absolutely beautiful. Outside of that layout we seem to have some significant problems. IMO the ideal layout would consist of two holy/disc priests, a holy pally, a resto druid (resto shaman instead of pally or druid?), two different class tanks, (warrior and prot pally or feral druid), 2 dps casters, 1 melee (rogue) and something else, throw in a hunter for the last spot.

I'm not going to say any spec doesn't have a place in a raid situation. IMO all specs have a place. But, because of the way encounters are designed, we have to tailor the group to the encounter. Shadow priests are very usefull, but when the shit hits the fan, i want a holy/disc priest ready to heal me rather than a shadow priest who has to come out of shadow form to heal me, probably w/o his healing gear on. I can't speak for holy pally's, never rolled one, but i can speak for resto druids. If i want to be as mana efficient as i can, i have to be in tree form, and that means i only have HoT's. Yes, i do have swiftmend, but we all know 15 seconds can be an eternity in a bind. Natures swiftness? 3 minute CD, emergency situations only. Ya, i can come out of tree form and use HT, but that's a 3 second cast, and between the time i cast and the time it lands, there's nothing else i can do to prevent other damage. I have no aoe heals except 1 that's on a 10 minute cooldown. If i want to be a healer in a raiding situation, i want to be part of a team of different classes. I want pally's AND priests who also have my back, to take up where my weaknesses leave me.
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Kalianna
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Post by Kalianna » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:26 pm

To me it's all so basic. I don't like to die......healz plz!
Please someone, give me the knowledge to only Blink when I should.

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Palehorse
Posts: 2031

Post by Palehorse » Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:27 pm

First, we are not DnT, we will never be like DnT, nor will we be like Silence or anyone else. If you guys want to be in those guilds then go right ahead, or if you think that you can do a better job leading/directing/or setting up raids, then by all means I will step down and let someone else take the lead.


Colder, since you haven't read the thread yet I'll be brief in my comments. I was not (again) trying to rub it in anyone's face about DnT, much less their raid makeup or talent specs. As Ecn said, the thread responses made reference to DnT in the context of priest shadow spec being useful for stuff like Vamp Embrace while at the same time still capable of backup healing. My comments on the DnT priests was just observation that yes, some of the priests are shadow spec, but I also saw a few holy. So I found the evidence at least inconclusive that top guilds "push" shadow spec on priests, which was what the OP said.

Nor was I criticizing raid setup or leadership (hell I haven't even played since mid-Jan!). In any event, the article was about healing, and also the priest class/talent specs with respect to healing.

Pale

HERE is the original post:
They use paladins and druids for healing, and priests spec shadow. Top guilds like DNT do this.

It seems at this time priests are 3rd on the rung of end game healing.

I matched up against a fairly evenly geared paladin the other day and was destroyed by their healing power.

We were both landing about the same size heals, I finished my mana bar and the paladin had 80% mana left. When I emptied my bar he said "oh yeah, and I can wear plate... you should head over to your trainer and spec something useful like shadow".

I really wanted to retort, but I couldnt....what was I going to say? I inspected him and looked him up on armory.. his gear wasn't much better than mine but he could heal a LOT better.

Whats up with priests?

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