Specing Pho

Rogue class discussion.

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Elvenbane
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Specing Pho

Post#1 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:25 pm

Alright, Pho's 70 now and it's time for a respec.

His current spec is 3/48/10 and leaves much to be desired in the ways of dps.

Due to pho's mobility I'm thinking a sword spec might be best, however he does current have 2 Ced's Carvers and no decent swords.

Gimme some builds and yes I'm aware of Combat Daggers 15/41/5
It's the thought that counts, not how many people die because of it.
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Stask
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Post#2 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:36 pm

Hmm, with having 2 Ced's Carvers, Combat Daggers 15/41/5 would be his ideal build so far. As for Sword Spec, that outside of my area of expertise (such as it is).

However, I am willing to give Pho some gameplay tips on how to play daggers in the meatime until we can get him some decent swords. As for what alternative specs there are, I don't know. I tend to say that if the Combat Daggers 15/41/5 spec isn't broke, then don't fix it. :-)
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Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

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Merawynn
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Post#3 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:01 pm

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0053201054000000000003203050021050150023210510000000000000000000000

This is a common sword rogue raid build. Hemo is another option, but know very little about it.

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Post#4 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:28 pm

Confused about the imp gouge and imp sprint in the build you listed mera, they don't seem very... raidy to me
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Post#5 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:36 pm

Well, keeping in mind I've never really spec'd SOLELY for raiding before.. but I would think this would be the best of the raiding dps talents.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000


You guys let me know if that is kind of what your looking for.
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Merawynn
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Post#6 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:25 pm

Look at my spec..I do have imp sprint :D and imp kick. Sprint is more for pvp, but I had to use the points to get lower in the tree.

And I stole that spec off another raiding rogue on the server, so mine does differ a bit.

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Post#7 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:39 pm

I have the spec mera posted, i stole it off of nagisa. Yea, have imp gouge/sprint to get farther down the tree. I think its the highest dps combat sword spec., and higher then combat daggers:P

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Post#8 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:24 pm

Shad, I'm not sure about that sword spec you posted; it seems to have at least one slight flaw, namely only 2/5 in Combat Potency... Being able to sometimes get as much as +25 energy back is HUGE for us rogues. Bold and Mera's spec has the 3 points in Imp Evis moved to CP instead and this makes more sense to me; the +15% damage from Imp Evis looks nice on paper, but having the full 5/5 Combat potency strikes me as much more useful.

Having never played combat swords, I have a question: I take it that combo points are not nearly as important to a sword spec as they are to a dagger spec?

And now I have a model spec to use if I ever decide to go swords. Not likely, but possible.
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan



Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

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Post#9 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:12 pm

Thieves! Quit stealing my secretz! (Just kidding!)

Just parusing the forums and I'd figure I'd drop my $0.02.

- A sword combat rogue is the highest damage rogue atm. Followed by combat daggers, tri-spec (11/27/23) Hemo, and then Muti/combat

- Hemo will be nerfed in the next patch so it's not "as" raid viable anymore, but play style is basically 2/5 and does decent damage.

- I've posted a dagger build before, but my sword build currently is "ideal" for raiding. Imp Gouge is a pvp talent if you don't want the 3% dodge, imp kick is mostly pvp (can't silence mobs), imp sprint is great for some fights where you will be slow/snared, and combat potency is the highly regarded as one of the easiest ways to up your dps by 50-100.

- EB, with two 1.8 daggers, Muti Combat is a decent spec. However, when you run it, make sure you use dual DP or at least DP/IP and your rotations are 2S&D/4rupture/4Evis. Flizibibi has a good mutilate spec if you want to look at it.

- Combat swords isn't more reliant on combo points, but it will allow you to maintain a solid rotation (less energy dependant --> more CP --> easier control of rotations) faster and easier. I can pull of 1/5 while combat daggers ideally need 3/5/5 rotations, which take more time to set up and there are very few bosses where you can execute that type of rotation consistently without getting interrupted. (e.g. Gruul/HKM)

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Post#10 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:48 pm

swords...daggs...it really depends on what you like and what you're used to. everyone's post is pretty much accurate.

daggers = consistant DPS
swords = big bursts of damage (same thing for maces / fists)

keep in mind you will lose 1/2 of your rogue abilities if you have something else on your MH other than a dagger (ie ambush, back stab).


one thing that most rogues fail to realize is that most of our DPS is white damage and not yellow crits. if you're a dagger rogue, you would want to do more white damage as fast as you can. of course dual wielding with such a fast pace will cause you to miss alot. make you get as much hit rating as you can get. this is also true for Sword rogues. even with my 324-329 (depending) hit rating, i tend to miss on boss fights. always remember...if you can't hit you can't crit. find a medium with in our stats. inorder to gain something, you're going to nerf another.

i pretty much built my rogue for long boss fights. with a 1.3 OH and a 1.8 MH, i will get a couple more Back Stabs in with more Mongoose and combat pot. procing. for every swing with my MH, i will swing about 4-8 swings with my OH (thus producing more white damage as well as criting).
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Post#11 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:24 pm

Gigaflo wrote:always remember...if you can't hit you can't crit

To expand on this, miss and crit occupy two opposite ends of the hit table. Your actual chance to crit isn't affected until miss+dodge+parry+block+glancing blow is greater than your crit chance. Improving your hit chance (as well as your Expertise) gives you more room to expand your critical strike chance.

I'm pretty sure that the recent nerf to glancing blows almost totally negates the problem of pushing crits off of a dual wielder's hit table, although I suppose it's still possible if you stack a truly ridiculous amount of crit. I haven't seen the actual numbers posted, though.

Generally, both hit and crit (for melee) will give you the same net DPS increase, with the following caveats:
* Yellow damage hit caps before white damage, because the dual wielding penalty doesn't apply.
* Talents that increase your critical hit damage multiplier improve the relative value of critical strike chance.
* Talents or abilities that proc off of crits also improve the relative value of critical strike chance.
* Hit rating is cheaper than crit rating for the same percent benefit.

I've seen a lot of emphasis on hit rating for casters and melee, but you really have to look at it in terms of the overall mathematical benefit. If 50% of your damage is white and 50% is yellow, hit rating loses half its effectiveness once you hit cap your specials. Meanwhile, crit rating continues to be effective and gets even more so if you have talents and abilities that proc on crits. In fact, since 2.3, the cheapest and most effective stat to increase your DPS is Expertise!
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Gig
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Post#12 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:41 pm

Unless you're going to be a tank or OT, Weapon Expertise is pretty much usless in a raid (for rogues). all it gives you is a reduced chance that your attacks will be dodged or parried. if your tank is doing his/her job correctly, you won't need this stat. of course, there are some brief chance when rogues do tank, but not always.

IMO, i would stick to Hit, Agi, and AP for stats. if you're going for PVP, then i would choose Weap. expertise .

for many rogues, being Hit Capped is a long a waited dream. once that stat is met i would venture on to either Haste or Agi. i have never seen a rogue who was hit capped (363).
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Post#13 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:31 pm

Umm, Gigaflo? Check the numbers. Being dodged is as bad as missing; it reduces your DPS by exactly the same amount. Reducing your chance to be dodged by 1% is identical in effect to increasing your chance to hit by 1%. I know this is tough, but stay with me. Here are some formulas:

Expertise Rating conversion at lv70: 3.94:1
1 point of Expertise = 0.25% reduced parry/dodge
Expertise Raiting for 1% parry/dodge reduction: 15.77 (source: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Expertise)

Hit rating for 1% improved hit chance: 15.77 (source: http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit)

As you can see, the comparative values are identical. Now, your effective hit bonus required for specials is capped at 8.6% (3.6% with Precision), while your dual wield hit bonus is capped at 27.6% (22.6% with Precision). Therefore, any hit rating you gain above the amount needed to cap your specials is beneficial exactly in proportion to your ratio of white to yellow damage.

Critical hit rating also increases your DPS. How much? 23.6% gives you 1% increased chance to deal a critical strike. Without talents, this gives a flat 1% increase in your DPS (except for bleeds). Now, Rogues have several talents that improve the benefit of critical hits, such as Lethality (improved damage multiplier) and Seal Fate (extra combo points on critical hits). It's difficult to absolutely quantify these effects, but let's just say 1% crit = 1% DPS.

Let's assume a typical combat build, with 60% of your DPS coming from white damage and 40% from specials. Let's assume you have 5/5 Precision and are always attacking from behind (a decent assumption in raids). Now, by simple math, the following calculations apply:

* Hit Rating, up to Special Cap: (64 rating)
1% rating = 1% DPS increase; 15.77 rating/1% DPS

* Hit Rating, up to Melee Cap: (65 to 363 rating)
1% rating = 0.6% DPS increase; 26.28 rating/1% DPS

* Expertise Rating, up to Cap: (88 rating, 49 with 2/2 Weapon Expertise)
1% rating = 1% DPS increase (from behind); 15.77 rating/1% DPS

* Critical Strike Rating: (practically, crit stops being effective around 40-50%, but this varies based on the encounter and your talent build)
1% rating = 1% DPS increase; 23.6 rating/1% DPS

Conclusions:
You want Expertise Rating up to the cap (5.6%, 88 points, or 49 with 2/2 Weapon Expertise). Then you want Hit Rating up to your special cap (64 points). After that, Critical Strike Rating gives you more benefit, point for point.

You can speak emotionally or anecdotally all you want; the math doesn't lie.
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Post#14 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:26 am

You can speak emotionally or anecdotally all you want; the math doesn't lie.


Lealla.....

What I would do without you.......

I honestly dont know.

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Gig
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Post#15 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:09 pm

thanks for that math summary Lealla, but it's all preference. personally i'd rather have more hit then weap exp. like i mentioned before, a rogues's hit cap is very high...and it will be some time before i invest in any other stats...least of all Weap Exp.

dam...you're a plethora of information. HA HA HA.
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