Specing Pho

Rogue class discussion.

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Lealla
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Post#16 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:40 am

Let's not forget that, when attacking from the front, Expertise doubles in value, and reduces the incoming damage you take (less parries = less hasted attacks). This is mainly applicable in PvP and soloing, but has some profound implications for those times when you need to or can't help holding aggro on a raid mob.

I should also mention that haste rating is, by all the calculations I've seen, the worst rating to stack in terms of net performance. It only benefits white damage and has a very bad conversion ratio. I'll have to check my math on that later, though, when I have access to wowwiki again.
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Stask
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Post#17 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:50 pm

Wow, haste is the stat that gives the least bang for the buck? I didn't know that...

But it's Lealla who's doing the number-crunching here so I'll defer to his wisdom (such as it is... ;-) )

Slightly OT, but Shariella is steadily getting closer to getting her MH sword. I just need another 9k honor to get the MH gladiator Season 1 MH sword and I think I have about 600 arena points total, which I will likely save for Season 4 when the Season 3 MH sword becomes available without the personal rating requirement.

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Stask
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Post#18 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:51 pm

Double post FTL...
Last edited by Stask on Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gig
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Post#19 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:25 pm

haste rating is, by all the calculations I've seen, the worst rating to stack in terms of net performance.


is this for a sword rogue or a dagger rogue? clearly you need to mention this is for a rogue who has a slow, but high DPS weapon. i use daggers and i rely on haste to put out my numbers. haste = AP (i don't know the number).

i use white damage more then i do yellow. i'm all about (for our canadian friends, "abOOt") haste. the faster can hit a target, the more combat pot, poison, enchants (mongoose) will proc, thus producing more white damge with the least amount of engery being spent (having a fast weapon).

this is the foundation of dagger rogues (raid spec'd). if you don't agree with this, just look at my numbers. there are somethings that math can't show you until you try it out yourself.

if you're talking about the haste rating on the new ZA(ish) badge items, then you should make sure your hit rating is capped before you invest in haste.

i agree with lealla about pumping up the weapon ex. if you're a sword rogue. you won't need to hit anything from the back so weap. ex. would be logical. and the 5 points in SUB could be spent somewhere else.
Last edited by Gig on Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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kites
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Post#20 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:01 pm

Haste used to be amazing till it was nerfed significantly

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Post#21 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:04 pm

This thread needs to be nerfed
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Post#22 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:46 pm

Hmm, reading up on Wowwiki, it appears that Haste Rating converts to Haste at the same ratio as hit and expertise convert to their respective percentages: 15.77 to 1%. As I said before, this improves your white DPS only and therefore its effect on your overall DPS is directly proportional to your ratio of white to yellow damage. However, as Gigaflo mentioned, haste also increases any procs that are a percent chance on hit (as opposed to "procs per minute" effects).

Based on this, I'd seek to increase my stats in the following order, to maximize the per-point benefit from itemization:

1. Expertise, up to the cap.
2. Hit, up to the specials cap.
3. Haste*
4. Critical Strike
5. Hit, up to the white damage cap.*

* Note that the benefit of these abilities improves in direct proportion to your white-to-yellow damage ratio. If white damage is 50% of your DPS, haste and hit ratings (after the specials cap) will be proportionately less valuable than if it's 60%. However, these ratings also have a synergistic effect, in that they only improve your white damage (okay, they also improve weapon procs). Crit, on the other hand, improves everything equally.
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Stask
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Post#23 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:32 am

zephar wrote:This thread needs to be nerfed


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Post#24 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:50 am

I always thought hit was the most important for rogues and fury warriors then crit and then everything else is just gravy. Confirm/Deny
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Post#25 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:19 pm

Deny.

Hit Rating, Expertise Rating, and Haste Rating are identical in their conversion ratios to a percentage value. Each has different benefits and drawbacks, however. Critical Strike Rating has a lower conversion ratio, but also has other benefits.

* Expertise more than doubles in value when you are attacking a target from the front. From behind, it has the same exact benefit as Hit. It has a hard cap at 5.6% (22.4 points/88 rating), after which it has absolutely no effect.

* For dual-wielders, Hit has maximum effect until your specials are capped (8.6%). Afterwards it's only as good as your ratio of white to yellow damage, up to the hard cap at 27.6%. It also improves on-hit based procs. The hit cap for single or 2-hand wielders is equal to the special cap.

* Haste only benefits white damage, so it basically starts out at the same value as post-special-cap Hit. It increases the rate of on-hit procs in exactly the same proportion as Hit.

* Crit doesn't have a cap or falloff point, making it worse than Hit/Expertise before the specials cap, but slightly better afterwards. Crit has no effect on DoTs/bleeds, but will benefit abilities that proc on critical hits (such as Deep Wounds).


Look, there are only so many ways I can explain this. Try this: go to Recount or WWS after a major fight and see how much of your damage was from melee and how much from your specials. That ratio is what you use to figure out how good Hit Rating and Haste Rating are compared to Critical Strike Rating.

Or, to put it another way, if you find an item with Expertise Rating, it's always better for you than the identical amount of Hit Rating, until you're Expertise capped. Once you are special capped with hit rating, Haste and Hit Rating are identical in value, while Critical Strike Rating is slightly better.
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Post#26 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:38 pm

*headache*
When Blizzard created hunters they gave them twice as many ways to fuck up as any other class.

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Post#27 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:20 pm

Maximizing your raid potential requires a willingness to understand the mechanics behind the game. Otherwise you're just following rote instructions: "hit rating good"; "stand in front of mob bad"; "Hulk smash".

My whole point is that there's no reason to absolutely prefer one type of rating over the other, as they all have benefits. If you are going to min/max, however, you need to understand the math.

Here's an example: Hit Rating (post-special cap) and Haste Rating become better than Critical Strike Rating when 67% or more of your DPS comes from white damage.
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Post#28 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:28 pm

I understand that.

Me Pew Pew it go Boom Boom.
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Gig
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Post#29 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:09 pm

HA HA
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Post#30 » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:21 pm

The only real prob with trying to get expertise is VERY little rogue gear contains that stat. Hit, AP, Agi, and Crit are most often found, with haste on weapons and trinkets.

Also, expertise cap prevents a boss from dodge/parry, but you will still miss him, unless you have a higher hit rating. I understand that expertise is nice, a stat that you prob need to get, but don't see how you can completely ignore white damage hit, until you have all your other things at a cap. The majority of my damage done is white, and i miss way more than I would like to.

The best source of info that I have found was at Elitist Jerks, in the Roguecraft 101 thread.
Last edited by Merawynn on Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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