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Rogue Talents in WoTLK - Clan YaWA - You and Whose Army

Rogue Talents in WoTLK

Rogue class discussion.

Moderator: Demon Hunters

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Gig
Posts: 684

Rogue Talents in WoTLK

Post#1 » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:28 pm

Thought i'd post it since every CL is doing this:


ASSASSINATION TALENTS

Deadly Brew (Requires 30 points in Assassination Talents) 0/2

"When you apply Instant, Wounding or Mind-Numbing poison to a target, you have a $h% chance to apply a second poison"

Instant -> Deadly
Wounding -> Crippling
Mind-Numbing -> Crippling"

This is something that Rogues have been needing for quite some time now. Although I wish that there was something added onto Crippling Poison such as a chance to proc Wound, I’m definitely not complaining.

By having a Wound Poison have a chance to apply your Crippling Poison, Rogues should see a significant reduction in how many times they need to Shiv to keep a player locked down. For raiding, double Instant Poison with the chance to apply Deadly each time it procs, might end up out performing Windfury giving Rogues much more versatility in raids as far as what group they are in. Mind Numbing having the chance to proc Crippling will be an amazing upgrade in Mage duels, as well as Rogues that play on Warrior/Rogue/Druid 3v3 teams due to the Mortal Strike debuff already being on the target.

Devious Poisons (Requires 35 points in Assassination Talents) 0/2

"Increases the damage caused by your Instant Poison and Deadly Poison by 10%. In addition, when your target you’ve poisoned is healed or cured, there is a 50% chance the poison afflicts the healer."

This will finally bring Envenom into PvP. Coupled with Deadly Brew, it will bring variety to which poisons Rogues can use without completely sacrificing Wound/Crippling.

Focused Attacks (Requires 40 points in Assassination Talents) 0/3

"Your melee critical strikes have a 30% chance to give you 1/2/3 energy."

Similar to Combat Potency, a proc based energy regen that will work well with a Mutilate build. The longer the fight goes the more valuable this talent will be.

Blood Spatter (Requires 40 points in Assassination Talents) 0/2

"Increases the damage caused by your Garrote and Rupture abilities by 10/20%."

While this may not seem like a big deal, the damage overall to plate with a Mutilate build will be very nice. This also will negate the resilience affecting these two damage over time spells.

Cut to the Chase (Requires 45 points in Assassination Talents) 0/5

"Your Eviscerate and Envenom critical strikes have a 20% chance to refresh your Slice and Dice duration to its 5 combo point maximum."

This is a great raid talent. In its current state, Rogues will most likely be using very low combo point Slice and Dice durations, along with using Eviscerate/Envenom a lot more to hopefully get a full 5 point Slice and Dice from there. This mechanic is great for raiding as a Rogue, so that you constantly have to make decisions in PvE on what finishers to use instead of just a set cycle to maximize your DPS. It might even eliminate you from having to use your Slice and Dice ability completley after the initial one.

Improved Poisons *CHANGED* (Requires 15 points in Assassination Talents) 0/5

"Increases the chance to apply poisons to your target by 5/10/15/20/25%."

Up until this change, most Rogues would pass up Imp Poisons for PvP in anything but a heavy Poison Mutilate build. With an increase of 15% from its old state, and having your poisons being able to proc a secondary one, this talent will be a must have. Getting 5 stacks of Deadly Poison for Envenoms or Wound Poison should be no problem at all.

Turn the Tables (Requires 35 points in Assassination Talents)

"You have a 5/10/15% chance of reflecting physical effects back on the attacker."

Amazing talent for Mutilate Rogues. Since they already have a harder time with melee due to the positioning requirement of the attack, reflecting a full rage Execute, Aimed Shot or Shadowstep Ambush will be quite satisfying. But I think the best part of this talent is having the ability to reflect things that prevent you from killing your current target - such as Kidneyshots, Mace stuns and even Hamstring.

Hunger for Blood (Requires 50 points in Assassination Talents) 0/1, 30 Energy, Instant

"Enrages you increasing all damage caused by 5%. If used while a Bleeding or Magic effect is afflicting you, it will remove one Bleed and one Magic effect and refund the energy cost. This effect can be stacked up to 3 times. Lasts 10 sec."

Amazing talent that I can’t believe doesn’t have a cooldown, only a low energy requirement. A nice blended final Assassination talent that combines Offense and Defense.aspects. For the first time since Luffa(lol), you can Blind/bandage on a Warrior any time you please. Furthermore, this in sync with Cloak of Shadows should make your survivability rate go up noticably. Which is nice since Assassination looks to have the lowest amount of survivability talents.

Master Poisoner *CHANGED* (Requires 25 points in Assassination Talents) 0/2

"Reduces the chance your poisons will be resisted by 5/10% and reduces the duration of all Poison effects by 25%".

Nice change to this talent especially since Blind is no longer a Poison and cannot be resisted. This makes the talent very consistant and no longer luck based, which is a great direction Blizzard is taking for a lot of other talents as well. Having a 5 stack Wound fall 25% faster is huge for healers on you if you are getting targeted, or for a Crippling for you to get away.

Vile Poisons *CHANGED* (Requires 15 points in Assassination Talents)

"Increases the damage dealt by your poisons and Envenom ability by 7/14/21% and gives your poisons and additional 10/20/30%."

Dropped from 5 to 3 talent points. You will get an additional 5% damage from your Envenoms, but will lose the option of adding 10% dispell resist for an extra two combo points. However, I dont think anyone is complaining with the Improved Poisons change.

COMBAT TALENTS

Murder Spree (Requires 50 points in Combat Talents) 0/1

"Step through the shadows from enemy to enemy within 10 yards, attacking an enemy every .5 secs with both weapons until 5 assaults are made. Can hit the same target multiple times."

This seems similar to the Juggernaut Ultimate ability "Omni Slash" in DoTA. If it works the same way, not only will this be great at running into a group of 3-4 players and doing a considerable amount of damage, but you will be able to use this in a situation like a 2v2 when no other player is in range. Instead of switching targets, you will just stay on that target until 5 assaults are made. Bouncing around also makes your Rogue a tough target for players to focus damage on, especially melee.

Unfair Advantage (Requires 40 points in Combat Talents) 0/2

"Whenever you dodge and attack you gain an Unfair Advantage, increasing your chance to hit by 2/4% and the chance that attacks will miss you by 2/4% for 8 sec."

Very nice talent for Combat since out of the three talent trees it has the lowest survivability. Coupled with Evasion your chance to be Blinded will be that much lower. Also it will be effective against most classes in PvP that usually wear the minimum hit possible.

Throwing Specialization (Requires 35 points in Combat Talents) 0/2

"Rank 2 Increases the range of Throw and Deadly Throw by 2/4 yards and gives your Deadly Throw a 50/100% chance to interrupt the target for 3 seconds."

Combat Rogues will now no longer need to wear Gladiator gloves in PvP. The range is also very nice for interrupting casters that are at max range.

Stay of Execution (Requires 40 points in Combat Talents) 0/3

"When you have less than 35% health, all damage taken is reduced by 5/10/15% and you are treated as if you are at full health."

More defensive additions for Combat specs. Being treated that as if you are at full health is very nice, It negates things such as Molten Fury and makes it so Paladins cannot use Hammer of Wrath on you. The biggest thing though will be for Execute, even with their new talent allowing them to gain a chance on crit to be able to Execute whenever they want regardless of HP.

Nerves of Steel *CHANGED* (Requires 30 points in Combat Talents) 0/2

"Reduces the Duration of all Fear and Stun effects by 15/30%."

I really like this change. Having a Stun/Fear resist is always good, this will take the randomness out of these abilities and be much better in the long run.

Blade Twisting *CHANGED* (Requires 25 points in Combat Talents) 0/2

"Your damaging melee attacks have a 10/20% chance to daze the target for 4 seconds."

While the duration was reduced from 8 to 4 seconds, I still believe this to be a considerable buff to this talent. With it being all attacks, it will now proc much more and give you just the amount of time you need to reapply Crippling Poison. Especially to targets that are trying to get away from you by spamming Dispel Poison on themselves.

Riposte *CHANGED* (Requires 10 points in Combat Talents/ Requires 5 points in Deflection Talents) 0/1

"A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponents attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and slows their melee attack speed by 20% for 30 seconds."

The duration of the debuff that will be applied to your target is simply amazing. This will result in a huge loss of DPS for your target. With the addition of Diminishing Returns to Disarm and the Warrior talent, the direction this ability has taken will once again make it something worth getting in the Combat Tree.


SUBTLETY TALENTS

Waylay (Requires 35 points in Subtlety Talents) 0/2

"Your Ambush critical hits have a 50/100% chance to reduce the target’s melee and ranged attack speed by 30%, movement speed by 70% and prevent item use for 8 seconds."

Good to see a little dagger love! I would assume there is a lot more to come for Dagger Rogues before the launch of WOTLK. The preventing item use is a very interesting aspect to this talent. This will be great for using Premed–>Ambush–>Kidney Shot without having to worry if their PvP trinket is up to get a full duration stun. Not to mention the many items that we don’t know about yet.

Slaughter from the Shadows (Requires 45 points in Subtlety Talents) 0/5

"Reduces the energy cost of your Backstab and Ambush abilities by 3/6/9/12/15."

More Dagger love! If the percentages of energy are low enough, you might be able to use Ambush/Backstab/Backstab only waiting on a global CD, all without Thistle Tea or Renetaki’s.

Wrongfully Accused (Requires 40 points in Subtlety Talents) 0/2

"Whenever an attack is made against you, if the target is not your current target or has not already been attacking you they cause 50% less damage for 3 seconds"

Although Combat has received many talents to improve its durability, I still believe that Subtlety will be the way to go for the highest survivability. This talent will really shine in higher brackets of PvP such as 3v3 and 5v5, buying your healers plenty of time anytime the opposing team decides to switch targets and focus fire on you. The talent alone is powerful enough for most teams to not even consider ANY spec Rogues as someone they can get a quick burst kill until they are certain you aren’t a Sub rogue.

Sap (Sub)

"Rank 4 - Incapacitates the target for up to $d. Must be stealthed. Only works on Humanoids, Beasts, Demons and Dragonkin that are not in combat. Any damage caused will revive the target. Only 1 target may be sapped at a time."

Being able to Sap pretty much everything now, will add depth and variation to who your Sap target will be in PvP and PvE. It will also make Rogues more appealing to players looking for CC in lower player instances such as 5 mans.

Shadow Dance (Requires 50 points in Subtlety Talents) 0/1

"Instantly enter stealth and begin the Shadow Dance. For 9 sec you will reenter stealth every 3 secs. (2 min CD)"

Probably one of my favorites since it seems to have so much potential on what can be done with it. Going into Stealth every 2 seconds would be an amazing upgrade for Ambush, as well as make Rogues very hard to be focused in arena. I also am hoping that this ability will be able to be reset with Preparation.

Fan of Knives (Sub)

"Instantly throw both weapons at all targets within $a1 yards, causing $s1% weapon damage. (Level 80, 50 energy)"

Seems like a decent AoE ability for Rogues. Can be nice for finishing off multiple targets while farming or on a target that is low HP in arena (that is not your primary target) without switching and losing all of your combo points.

Prey on the Weak (Requires 45 points in Subtlety Talents) 0/5

"Your normal melee critical strike damage is increased by 5/10/15/20/25% when the target has less health than you (as a percentage of total health)."

All around great talent. Especially good for 1v1 since as a Rogue you will usually get the jump on your target - meaning they will be lower in HP than you from the very start of the fight. Good raiding talent as well, since most of the time you are at full (or close to it) HP.

Honor Among Thieves (Requires 40 points in Subtlety Talents) 0/3

"Rank 3 - When anyone in your group critically hits with a damage or healing spell or ability you have a $h% chance to gain a combo point on your current target. "

This is a great boost for Rogues especially in 5v5 arena, and since it works with healing spells as well, it should be great for any class composition you run.

Wavering Will

"Increases the time between an enemy’s attacks speed by $s1%, slows its casting speed by $s3%, and slows its movement by $s2%. Lasts $d."

Using this on healing classes in combination with Wound Poison, should be very effective in shutting them down for the most part. Also depending on the attack/casting speed reduction, the damage decrease of your target when someone is getting burned might be gamebreaking.

Shonmitsu
Posts: 47

Post#2 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:45 am


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hell
Posts: 22

Post#3 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:09 am

hey i got dibs on sword spec again
What ever does'nt kill you simply makes you...stranger.

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Gig
Posts: 684

Post#4 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:38 am


70
Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#5 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:40 pm

Yea, i just threw my two maces in the bank and started grinding toward my daggers. I got the 1st in 2-3 days : ) I have an e.ripper, so it will hold me over for a bit.

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Lealla
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Post#6 » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:34 pm

Yes, I realize this is technically an old thread, but the Rogue forum hasn't been all that busy, so I don't feel too ashamed of myself.

Come Tuesday, I'll need to decide on a new spec for my 61 Rogue. He's currently Daggers, and I've been wanting to try out Assassination for some time. So, here's my take on a build based pretty much entirely around Mutilate: . This guy isn't going to raid or PvP, so the tail end of the Assassination tree just doesn't look enormously attractive. For 70, I'm thinking about pushing down to Precision and Close Quarters Combat. However, I certainly would appreciate any comments or criticism.


Stask
Posts: 1804

Post#7 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:42 am

I'm also interested in hearing comments on any new sword specs as a result of the patch.
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan

Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

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Gig
Posts: 684

Post#8 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:36 am

i personally will stay as mut through out 3.0 - WotLK. i've tested the whole Assassination tree on the PTR and HUnger For Blood is kinda cool since it acts like a second Murder (or a thrid if you have a Meta Helm).

(lealla) if you're planning on going into the Assassination tree, you should spec into your poison talents. the whole idea of Ass Spec (lol) is to use your poisons as much as you can. this is the core of the spec.

honestly, i would recommend trying every spec out just to get your feet wet and see what you like more. who knows, you might like pwning face with swords?

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Lealla
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Post#9 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:06 pm

Gig... er Ryjinn... do you have your Muti spec planned out? Please post it so I can look it over. I want to check out this love of poisons you seem to have. :-)

Anyway, I was thinking about rotations with Mutilate... it looks like a huge combo point builder. With just Mutilate itself, it seems the best rotation for non-elite grinding would be CS Mut [Mut] EV Mut KS Mut Mut, and so forth. EV could be either Envenom or Eviscerate, depending on DP stacks, and you could skip the second Mut opener if the first one crits, as you'd already have 5 combo points.

On a longer fight, and with the Cut to the Chase talent particularly, I'd think the best sequence would be more like: CS Mut SnD Mut KS Mut Mut EV, etc., alternating Kidney Shot with EV if the mob is vulnerable to it, and otherwise going for straight EV.

Now, Eviscerate has been said to be inferior to Rupture across the board for a long time, but how do they stack relative to Envenom? Do you Rupture initially and then Evisc/Envenom until the DoT runs out? I wouldn't think you'd even bother with Rupture on non-elites in most situations.

Inquiring minds like to know. :-)



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Taralash
Posts: 442

Post#10 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:11 pm

Mutilate is crazy combo points.

70
Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#11 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:34 pm

you almost never use evicerate. There is a better option almost every time.

I haven't done a ton with the new talents, but this is really the rotations you want to go for.

I use dual deadly posion and never have to worry about it stacking up.

Single target -
Cheap Shot>Mutilate [wait for 75 eng] Kidney shot> Mut>Mute>envenom

After your first cheap shot, wait for deadly posion to hit before you mutilate. There is no 5 second rule for energy, so it dosent matter if you hit mutilate as soon as you cheap shot or half a beat before it falls off- as long as you dont hit 100 energy - your not "losing" energy.

Using the above your combo points will be Cheap Shot (2)>Mutilate(4-5)>Kidney shot(0-1)>Mut(2-4)>mute(4-5)>Envenom(1)

Most mobs your level will die before you get to envenom.


Boss -
Open with either garrote or ambush and wait for 1 posion stack
Mutliate > Slice and dice> Mutliate>mutilate>rup>Mute>Mute>S&D - You simply do this over and over mixing in envenom when your slice and dice and rupt. aren't about to fall off.

On a boss, if you have a druid/pally/death knight tank - you can use expose armor too.

The only time I ever use evecerate is when I am soloing, have 4-5 points and for some reason no posion stacks. Maybe i had a 5 stack and 5 points, Env. and they had like 200 hp left and my finishing moved put a point up- i might evecerate, or just sinister strike (or mutliate from the front after tuesday).


A note on pvp - You use the same rotation for a single target for the most part, but you want to lock down your target for a longer period of time. You do this by "resetting" the fight when it is to your advantage. CS>Mute>KS(right before CS falls off)>Mute>Mute>Envenom>Vanish>CS>Mute>KS>Mute>Mute>Envenom>Blind - deselect the target, exit combat and re stealth>CS>Mute>KS>Mute>Mute>Envenom. If their trinket is on cooldown, you don't miss any stuns, and you pull that off - they should die. Mages will blink out of the first Kidey shot, so garrote them instead, pallys will bubble, so cos/vanish and wait out the bubble (But you shouldn't jump pallys anyway).. various other classes will do a handful of other things you will have to learn to deal with. Don't jump plate. Watch for them to trinket out of one of your stuns - vanish/blind to get back in control and be ready with your trinket incase they fear you or something as they trinket.

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Gnomerman
Posts: 1814

Post#12 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:50 pm

don't forget the awesomeness of iceblock for mages, and if they get a ablink of afterwords run away from the frost ele, also, come 3.0 avoid the mage with the ice barrier, its not a good thing to break, it involves you getting frozen and you taking dmg, and in turn getting stunned because you froze :) (pvp mages are going to be pretty much awesome come 3.0)



There is more to life than pew pew you know, like staying out of the fire so you can live to pew pew another day

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Ecnailla
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Post#13 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:55 pm

I used to love fighting frost mages when I was lolstep.

Garrote, hemo, hemo, [frost nova/blink], s.step, kidenshot [iceblock] stealth, and so on...

I could usually win, but imo it was just a fun fight. Both classes have a lot of moves to counter with and its like a fast pase chess game. I know a lot of duals are like that, but rogue vs. mage just always seemed to be a well balanced, fast pased fight.

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Gig
Posts: 684

Post#14 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:39 pm

Lealla....

for non elite mobs i usually open with CS > Mut (by this time i'll either have 4-5 CP) > KS > Mutx2 > envenom (by this time the mob is dead). besides applying poisons on mobs, Mut spec gives you god like control of your target. in raids, it's basically: Mut > Finisher >mut > mut >finisher as my rotation. this is always watching my positioning (which wont matter in 3.0) and when my procs are active. Find Weakness is the Vagine-O-Mite of the procs you're going to be watching for. combined with Cold Blood and a 5cp envenom i can crit for about 5-6k and still have enough energy for a mutilate. keeping your poisons on a mob/boss acts like a DOT. combined with rupture, it's like having your own personal Warlock inside your daggers.

is a link to the mechanics of Mut. this explained rotation, builds, and other things regarding the build. now some of the information will change come tuesday, but the basic mut is still the same.

i almost never use Evis since rupture is constant and i get more damage with envenom. i don't bother using rupture on trash/non elite mobs since they'll go down faster then bosses. rupture is great when PVPing. Evis is only used when the mob is immuned to poison or bleed effects.

i'll post my builds later when i'm not at work. hope this helps.

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Lealla
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Post#15 » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:50 pm

I get how Mutilate works, more or less. I'm just trying to evolve a build around it that I can take with me to 70 or higher. I rethought some stuff based on what you said about poisons and came up with . It offers plentiful damaging capability while soloing or in 5-man groups. I looked at some of the other talents like Deadly Brew and concluded that they're PvP oriented. Even Master Poisoner seems to offer relatively limited benefit for the points.

One talent I'm considering is Turn the Tables - if it procs while soloing it'd be a pretty reliable damage booster, but the objective of Mutilate is to keep mobs from ever attacking, period. Any thoughts? What would you drop to get it?

It seems like there are a lot of valuable talents in the first tiers of Combat and Subtlety - how useful is it to skip some Assassination talents to pick up, say, DW Spec and Precision? Would that be a viable strategy towards 80?



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