Executioner

Rogue class discussion.

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Gig
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Executioner

Post#1 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:13 pm

what do you guys this of this enchant? i started collecting some Armor Pen gear and was thinking about messing around with this enchant as MUT spec. your thoughts on PVP and PVE pls. thanks.
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Ginxx
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Post#2 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:53 pm

PVP is fun. PVE is also fun.

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Taralash
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Post#3 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:12 pm

I can't give you exact numbers, but most bosses have around 8000 armor. I see most endgame melee running around 1000+ ArP baseline, you throw Executioner procs on that and you end up cutting down boss armor by 1/4th, increasing damage output exponentially. Unfortunately nerds have dictated that Mongoose is still better for rogues.

PvP-wise you're going after casters first and foremost. When Executioner procs here, it's radically better, often reducing enemy armor to absolute zero. Throw in some Kidney Shots and you've got a dead mofuker.

Just play around with it Gig. :P

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Gnomerman
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Post#4 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:56 pm

for rogues its really tough to determine if you go mongoose or excecutioner on the main hand. my honest opinion is proccing 120 agi means 120 ap, a ton of crit, and a mild swing speed increase. (can't forget dodge) so, thats why its tough. for aa warrior its no brainer excecutioner on mh, cuz you don't get the ap buff from mongoose.

however lossing the seccond mongoose means you can'd double proc it, as well as you have it up less, and yes theory crafting puts dual mongoose ahead of excecutioner/mongoose for a rogue. but hey, if you got mats try it out, it seems like it would be equally beneficial for mut as well as combat.
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Lealla
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Post#5 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:18 pm

Some things to note: First, Agility is much better for Rogues, Shaman, and Hunters) than it is for other classes because it adds AP as well as crit (and dodge, but that's not relevant to this discussion).

Second, haste is better in direct proportion to your ratio of white damage to yellow damage; in other words, your specials don't get any speed increase or cooldown reduction from haste. If you're doing 60% of your damage from your base melee hits alone (including any procs that can occur off of them, like Sword Spec, poisons, etc.), then 1% haste is effectively worth a 0.6% increase in overall DPS. A good damage meter can reveal these numbers.

Third, as Tara observed, armor penetration in its current incarnation is dramatically superior against low armor targets because it reduces their armor by a much higher percentage than against high armor targets. As a direct result, the more you have, the more effective each point is. To see an example this, compare your physical DPS versus Void Reaver to your DPS versus Shade of Aran (well, Shade also doesn't dodge or parry while casting, but I'm talking about the magnitude of each hit).

Now, there is a change coming in 3.0: armor penetration on gear is turning into a rating just like crit, hit, etc.. This rating will reduce enemy armor versus your attacks by a percentage, scaling with level. This shouldn't hugely affect DPS; what it will do, however, is make armor penetration equally effective against high armor and low armor targets. Someone will have to theorycraft this out to compare it with other ratings in terms of effectiveness.

However, my Paladin has Executioner on his Stormherald, and I can attest that the proc from the enchant is not a rating in 3.0, but is in fact the full 840 points or whatever it gives on live. Whether this is an oversight or intended is something I don't know - perhaps it'll change in a future patch.
Nevertheless, it's still apparently better to have the enchant when attacking low armor targets.
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adenrei
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Post#6 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:58 pm

Lealla is almost correct on his assumptino of agi being more important for rogues,huntards, and shammies, althought its not as great for shammies till 3.0 (currently we get no ap from agi yet it is still our best enchant), but like he it is not important.

I know for shammies executioner is awesome IF and only IF we stack armor pen. Unfortunately, the amount of armor pen we need is so high that i am unable to get enough with current gear that its useless for me.

Now for rogues, i would imagine that it would be best for pvp. My 2v2 partner throws expose armor on all his targets and with minimal armor pen already, can tear up a plate wearer that much faster.

With that in mind, you will never put expose armor on a raid boss/mob as tanks are applying sunder armor....i think. With executioner and sunder armor up along with numbers of armor pen it may be good. But is this number greater than 240 possible more agi/ap/armor/crit/haste?

I dont know...just my two cents of questions.

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Lealla
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Post#7 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:25 pm

Don't forget Faerie Fire, which as a "minor armor debuff" stacks with Sunder or Expose Weakness. I do try to keep it up when I'm running as Boomkin and it's a melee-heavy raid. For the same reasons, it also helps tank threat generation. It's more efficient for a Feral Druid to maintain though.

And Ec, I was referring to 3.0 Shaman, not existing ones, when I mentioned the Agility->AP thing. Sorry for the lack of clarity.
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