so.. apparantly rouges arn't broken?

Rogue class discussion.

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Gnomerman
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Post#16 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:54 pm

im going to try to develop a combat daggers build ( i think using backstab as the combo point generator, which would rule our fist mh)
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Stask
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Post#17 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:13 pm

Ugh, the reason I went Mut and not combat daggers was because the positioning for Backstab was always a bitch. If the mob's back moved out of position even slightly, Backstab wouldn't take and it would nerf my dps as a result.

But then again, I mentioned this already.
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan

Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

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Gig
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Post#18 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:22 pm

You're forgetting your Energy Pool. Combat daggers tend to have the following issues:

1. BS uses a lot of energy
2. Position reliant build
3. SS uses less energy (something like SSx3 = 1-2 BS)

if you compare Mut Vs. Combat (daggers or swords), Mut will have 4-5 CP and finishing (while procing poisons) before you can get 3-4cp with combat AND have the energy to pool for your next Mut (which can generate 2-3cp).

i've raided as combat daggers from 5 man TBC instances to SSC/TK/ZF, and i had a blast BSing bosses for 6-8K a pop. IMO since pooling energy is the bread and butter for any rogue build, mut willgive you more bang for your energy buck. given equal gear, i would imagine MUT > Combat in energy pool / cp generating. now given a player's skill.....that's a different story.
Last edited by Gig on Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gig
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Post#19 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:30 pm

also, just to list a few nerfs.....

Murder put so far down in Assassination tree as to not be available to Combat rogues.
Relentless Strikes moved to Subtlety and increased to 5 points.
Infectious Poisons REMOVED.
Improved Poisons/Vile Poisons no longer available to Combat rogues, due to having to put 5 points in Subtlety.
Improved Poisons nerfed from 5/10/15/20/25% to 2/4/6/8/10%.

...rogues aren't broken.....they just suck ass now compared to every other class. :D
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Brulan
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Post#20 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:40 pm

*cough cough* I'm sorry what's that about a class/spec sucking?
No.

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Gig
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Post#21 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:48 pm

SOrry Bru....i feel your pain. somewhere, someone is working on a patch that will bring our classes/Spec back up to where it belongs.
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Gnomerman
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Post#22 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:50 pm

well... im trying to develop the simplest to play build going on, and ss would probably be better than backstab, assuming you have a nice slow mh weapon. and as far as energy efficiency. also for mut you want the fastest daggers you can find. 1.8 speed isn't what your shooting for any longer.

stask... as far as what spec you play, as long as its not retarded, and does an appropriate amount of dmg for your gear, its about what you like to play, and what you have fun doing. if the weapons/gearing exist for you to run combat swords or combat daggers, be my guest.

hemo is still something im looking at, sub has its finer points. i've got a semi broken combat daggers spec going on, with an emphasis on envenom. the current gear level, envenom scaling may not be worth it, but thats based on ap, so if your ap is high enough, envenom should do tremendous amount of dmg. (somewhere around 4k unbuffed).

unless there is some other scaling issue im missing. raid or rogue wise.


http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0gcoeZ0gVbxbxoruMxRZxb

a very ugly backstab build. -note, i don't play rogue
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There is more to life than pew pew you know, like staying out of the fire so you can live to pew pew another day

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Gig
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Post#23 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:15 pm

Gnomer...here is a dagger build i made up on my lunch break. there are some key talents that are missing (poisons, murder...ect.) but that's how the combat builds are looking. also, there are a lot of usless talents (ie 1 point sowrd spes.) and categories where you would have to spec into top get to the next tree.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogue=0 ... 0000000000

Vigor is mainly viable in a PVP environment. (tried to spec into it and failed)you can only see the benefits from Vigor if you are at a 100% energy (opening moves). raiding, you don't pool your energy to a 100 before making an attack (usually i pool some where between 60-75%). with the new Glyph of Vigor (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42971), this might change things by having more energy (from 110 spec'd into it to 120). i still don't see it being used in a PVE environment since you're going to be attacking come 65-75% energy and not 120.

Gear Scaling wise, rogue gear suck at scaling. combat daggers uses white damage mainly so your hit has to be pretty high not to mention evening out all your other stats. rogue gear has a lot of flaws to begin with. you'll have to sacrfice a ton of "stat a" to gain "stat b" while nerfing "stat c". comparing rogue gear to warriors, we just can't stack against them (ie dual wielding 2h weap with a shit ton of stats PER weap).
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Gnomerman
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Post#24 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:09 pm

ok... mine was close. im not a total idiot.

question, does energy regen at a fixed rate, like 40 energy every 3 secconds? or is it based on a 5 of your energy. if its the later vigor is nice, if not, then the 10 energy seems like it would still be an okay idea... idk though
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There is more to life than pew pew you know, like staying out of the fire so you can live to pew pew another day

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Gig
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Post#25 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:16 pm

it's a great talent to spec into if you PVP or solo grind since you'll have 10 extra enrgery to work with (10 engery = one mroe move you can do). mainly it's a fixed rate for regen unless you spec into Vitality . getting gear to effect your energy (like T5 4 pc set bonus) or specing into Quick Recovery (if you're below Finisher hit cap) is "jack off worthy" on boss fights as well in PVP.
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Lealla
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Post#26 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:48 pm

Rogues regenerate 20 energy every 2 seconds (well, since the 3.0 patch it's continuous instead of in 2 sec ticks, but it's the same rate). This is a fixed rate that is unaffected by Vigor or anything else. The only thing that changes the core regeneration rate is the Adrenaline Rush talent, but there are lots of talents and abilities that generate energy in other ways.
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Gig
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Post#27 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:37 pm

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