HAT Spec

Rogue class discussion.

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Gig
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HAT Spec

Post#1 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:57 am

Gnomer was doing some research on why some rogues were doing 12K DPS on Tahd. given the Thad fight does boots Melee DPS a bit but there is another way.

after snooping around at work i start to look into HAT (Honor Among Theives) Spec. basically, this is Deep into the Sub tree and in TBC, was only good for PVP. now one thing makes this Spec viable for raiding [url=http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51698[url]Honor Among Thieves.[/url]

same thing that applies as Mut or in any Rogue build....COMBO POINTS. Just imagine HAT procing 24 times in a boss fight. that is 24 raid members criting giving a HAT Rogue 33% chance to gain a combo point 24x (given the "CD" limit of the proc) while generating his combo points. that's like every other move is a finisher. i would imagine this spec would not do as well in a 5 or 10 man since it is group dependent


The Rotation:
Opener / 5cp Rup / 5cp SnD / if Rup and SnD are still ticking ->Envenom/Evis until you need to refresh Rup / SnD -Repeat

Gear:
Same as any other rogue gear... Agi, Hit, Ap, Crit. gemming anything with agi / hit would do. if you have a meta then gem to the spec of that meta.

Weapons: Slow MH, Fast OH. i've seen a lot of rogue doing Fist/daggers or 2 daggers to utalize their BS/Abmush abilities.

There is also a "bug" with in this spec....more like an exploit. it appears HaT is giving an extra combo point per Hat rogue per crit atm. 2 HaT rogues = any rogue crits, 2 combo points are given. 3 HaT rogues, 1 crits, 3 combo points are given.

just 2 rogues in a group with a hunter or so would be full of combo points, as the rogues have evis/envenom up. with near 50% crit rate (imagine if you had a group of rogues procing HAT in a raid). i'm pretty sure Blizz is aware of this and will fix it in an a patch somewhere.


[url=http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?tal=30201000000000000000000000000520300500050100000000000005320032030300121350115031000#none[url]Spec[/url]
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Lealla
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Post#2 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:36 am

FYI, Blizzard is indeed aware of this issue, so don't expect it to last forever.
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Stask
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Post#3 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:50 am

Quick comment: I'm looking at the Vek Rogues and while all the Mut rogues all have the same spec (51/13/7), there seems to be some slight variance of specs for the HAT rogues. Namely, it's not completely consistent, some used (7/21/43) while others used (5/21/45) (This one is Kitsunari, an Enigma rogue i grouped with in Icecrown last night) and even a third variant (6/21/44) [EDIT: This third variant looks to be the original HAT spec as it's the one Gig linked previously.] More research is needed to see which one would be best for me to experiment with.

More later.

Oh, and Gig, in your rotation above, you put 5cp Rup before 5cp SnD. I remember that was something I did when I was still sword specced and IIRC it was a major reason my dps was abnormally low. Shouldn't the SnD come before the Rupture or is HAT an exception to this rule?
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Gnomerman
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Post#4 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:26 am

stask, the reason why you don't SnD is due to the fact that you are only making half of your own combo points, and the majority of your damage is yellow, not white.

gig/lealla, i belive its getting fixed in 3.0.8, the exploit that is.

so if you have 3 rogues in your group (thats how they were getting 10k dps on patch) instead of now getting 3 bombo poitns per effect, you'll be getting one per rogue as normal. even not as an exploit, a fully raid buffed shaman or hunter or warrior is going to be critting every other hit. in a 5 man group, with 4 mele, you are probably going to have them crit once per seccond between the 4 of them.
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Elvenbane
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Post#5 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:41 am

Umm gig, HAT Rank 3 is 100%
It's the thought that counts, not how many people die because of it.
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Brulan
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Post#6 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:17 am

Gnomerman wrote:stask, the reason why you don't SnD is due to the fact that you are only making half of your own combo points, and the majority of your damage is yellow, not white.

gig/lealla, i belive its getting fixed in 3.0.8, the exploit that is.

so if you have 3 rogues in your group (thats how they were getting 10k dps on patch) instead of now getting 3 bombo poitns per effect, you'll be getting one per rogue as normal. even not as an exploit, a fully raid buffed shaman or hunter or warrior is going to be critting every other hit. in a 5 man group, with 4 mele, you are probably going to have them crit once per seccond between the 4 of them.


I'm critting roughly 60% of the time, and I have a guarnteed crit every 8 seconds.
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Lealla
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Post#7 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:35 am

Yeah, there shouldn't be any significant dropoff in HAT effectiveness in a 5-man group, as long as you aren't hanging out with pure DoT classes. And just to stress the point that's already been made, the bug is definitely fixed in 3.0.8.

Blizzard is aware of generally lower than expected DPS output for Rogues and plans to address it soon, most likely in 3.1. Raid content is not difficult enough in the current patch to make it a priority; only the extreme outliers are being buffed (or nerfed) in 3.0.8. Rogues did in fact have much higher than expected DPS in beta; this was caused by a bug in the Master Poisoner talent and led the developers to make incorrect assumptions regarding scaling.
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Gnomerman
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Post#8 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:17 am

even when hat is fixed, it is still going to be a very viable spec. mages are a bad group to be in, cuz we only hit a spell every 3 secconds, even with 60% crit chance. in a fury warrior, hunter, enhance shaman, ret pally, and hat rogue group, that rogue would be getting pretty damn close to the one cp/seccond cooldown. Without the bug, that is still more than doubling a rogues cp generation.
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Gig
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Post#9 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:40 pm

Elvenbane wrote:Umm gig, HAT Rank 3 is 100%


just wanted to link what a HAT was.

Stask, this game and playing your class is finding out what best works for you. i respec'd countless times over and over again on my rogue to find out what i liked more. it takes time a gold to find your G spot. try out the basic HAT spec (that's if you're going to try it), and see what fits you best.

***Edit***
Stask, i would love to test out this "bug" in a 10-25 man run if you'd like. we can resepc to HAT and see what kind of numbers you and i would do.
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Gnomerman
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Post#10 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:14 pm

do it this week before they patch it out :)
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Stask
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Post#11 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:44 am

Elvenbane wrote:Umm gig, HAT Rank 3 is 100%


Gig wrote: just wanted to link what a HAT was.

Stask, this game and playing your class is finding out what best works for you. i respec'd countless times over and over again on my rogue to find out what i liked more. it takes time a gold to find your G spot. try out the basic HAT spec (that's if you're going to try it), and see what fits you best.

***Edit***
Stask, i would love to test out this "bug" in a 10-25 man run if you'd like. we can resepc to HAT and see what kind of numbers you and i would do.


On finding my G spot, theres just one problem: I'm the wrong gender to even have a G spot. Go figure. :-P

As for respeccing, I have no problem with it if it's necessary, I just am reluctant to make changes to anything unless it's absolutely necessary (must be my conservative nature). I also don't want to deal with the rigamarole of learning a new rotation unless I have no other choice. Still and all, the necessity of respeccing is becoming more and more apparent so I shall be respeccing to HAT once I've decided on what looks like the best variant.

As for running a 10-man or a 25-man to test out the new HAT spec, I'm certainly willing to do that, but just FYI I'm already saved only to 10 and 25 Archavon while some Yawa guys (mostly alts by what I saw last night) are already saved to Naxx 10. More mains are already saved to Sarth 25 and Malygos 25. Nonetheless if we can find a good group for a 10 or 25 man raid, I'll happily go to test the new HAT spec. I await your convenience, good sir. :-)
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan



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Elvenbane
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Post#12 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:21 am

Stask wrote:On finding my G spot, theres just one problem: I'm the wrong gender to even have a G spot. Go figure. :-P

Not true, but I doubt you'd find it if you were female anyways.
It's the thought that counts, not how many people die because of it.
Elvenbane#1520

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Ecnailla
Posts: 3624

Post#13 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:30 am

Stask wrote: As for respeccing, I have no problem with it if it's necessary, I just am reluctant to make changes to anything unless it's absolutely necessary (must be my conservative nature). I also don't want to deal with the rigamarole of learning a new rotation unless I have no other choice.



Stask, I'm going to be honest, I find this section of your post troubling. I think a very large part of your performance issues stems from this mindset. The only thing that type of thinking will do is guarantee you will never improve. Untill you find a spec that works for you I wouldn't shy away from spending 100s of gold on respecs even if it is just to move 2 points here, 3 points there.... "reluctant to make changes to anything unless it's absolutely necessary".... I don't even know what to say to that, umm... at what point would you consider a change absolutely necessary?

Stask
Posts: 1804

Post#14 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:32 pm

Stask wrote: As for respeccing, I have no problem with it if it's necessary, I just am reluctant to make changes to anything unless it's absolutely necessary (must be my conservative nature). I also don't want to deal with the rigamarole of learning a new rotation unless I have no other choice.


Ecnailla wrote: Stask, I'm going to be honest, I find this section of your post troubling. I think a very large part of your performance issues stems from this mindset. The only thing that type of thinking will do is guarantee you will never improve. Untill you find a spec that works for you I wouldn't shy away from spending 100s of gold on respecs even if it is just to move 2 points here, 3 points there.... "reluctant to make changes to anything unless it's absolutely necessary".... I don't even know what to say to that, umm... at what point would you consider a change absolutely necessary?


Ec, I live by the maxim: "If it's not broke, don't fix it." I saw myself putting out 3200 dps on Patchwerk (assumming I was reading Recount right) and thought I was performing fine. I honestly didn't know my performance was suffering until people told me. I don't look at the WWS for every raid because I don't know how to crunch the numbers or examine the data. So the only way I can start to fix the problem of my performance is for someone to tell me that my performance is suffering.

The reason I'm reluctant to respec is because I don't want to spend points willy nilly without knowing what I'm doing. As bad as my performance may have been lately, I'm reluctant to do anything to make the problem worse. That's why I've been posting here. If i can't figure it out, then I ask my guildmates for the answers. That's what guildmates are for, right? A support system to help each other out?

Ecn, you said you wouldn't shy away from spending hundreds of gold to experiment with new respecs and thats fine. But for me, spending gold on respecs where I don't know beforehand where and how to spend the talent points just strikes me as inherently wasteful. WoW gold is pretty fungible, but all the same, I still don't want to waste it without knowing how to spend it beforehand. Hence my reluctance to respec.

Still and all, HAT specs have gotten me a bit excited for its potential, even despite the fact that the HAT exploit may get corrected/nerfed soon. I'm gonna continue my research and should be respeccing soon. I'm curious to see how my dps output will change with HAT as my new spec.
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan



Recorded for posterity. He had no idea how right he was.

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Elvenbane
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Post#15 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:53 pm

I'm sorry Stask, maybe I'm reading the tone of your replies in completely the wrong way but the words that keep going through my head when I read them are:

"I'm not going to change anything till someone does all the work for me and tells me exactly what to spec and how to play it."

Don't get me wrong, I (and I'm sure others) have no problem giving you a hand improving. But at the same time we don't want to do all the footwork for you.
It's the thought that counts, not how many people die because of it.
Elvenbane#1520

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