[Split] Martial Arts

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zephar
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Post by zephar » Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:28 pm

Lealla wrote:Ec, I hold a 2nd degree black belt in Chung Do Kwon Tae Kwon Do - under a traditional teacher rather than a competitive one. I'm about 2 years out of practice, unfortunately.
I have heard of Tae Kwon Do, but never heard of Chung Do Dwon. I assume it is some sort of self defense.

But speaking of Martial arts, The two I consider the top forms of martial arts to be Kickboxing and Muay Thai.

Muay Thai vs Tae Kwon Do Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcoprF6_FOM
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Post by Ecnailla » Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:01 pm

Na, its just a form of Tae Kwon Do. It's founder trained with Gichin Funakoshi in Okinawa, commonly known as the father of modern day karate.

While I respect the tradition and I find the kata and form very interesting, I find the practicality of a lot of "traditional" martial arts to be lacking.
I am a huge fan of Jeet Kune Do, founded by non other than Bruce Lee. It isn't actually a style of martial arts, that is a common misconception. It is a principal to be applied to martial arts. Basically, "the style of no style". He would offend some martial arts gurus by mixing styles and saying, you may have the best side kick, but this style has a better roundhouse. He would study various styles and if he found a better way to do [insert move here], he would adapt to it. That is why you never see Bruce Lee's name with a style of fighting.



There isn't a perfect martial art, Kickboxing and Muay Thai are both great, but they aren't rounded out. Both have serious flaws if you end up on the ground or something. Muay Thai is very interesting, its kicks are not "snap" kicks like in karate - the are more like getting hit with a baseball bat than a whip. They teach you to follow through with the motion instead of pulling it back after impact. I'll take a kick from a black belt in karate any day over a kick from a Muay Thai fighter.


The best it has ever been put to me is like this - you have 4 zones you can fight in - Kicking range, Punching range, close in ( think bear hugs, knees and elbows) and on the ground. If you want to be an effective fighter, you need to be able to handle yourself in easy of the 4 zones. When I was 17 I had a older friend (30ish) who had multiple black belts. He is the one that told me the zone thing. He said he spent the first 5 years on just Tae Kwon Do and could do some really beautiful kicks in the air, but he realized after 5 years he had made a mistake. He said, If I would have gotten in a bar fight, I would have had my ass handed too me - If I had a chance to start over, I would take about 2 years Ju-jitsu for the ground and close in range, about a year of traditional American boxing for the punching range and about 2 years Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai or Kickboxing for the Kicking range.


I love ju-jitsu (brazil, not japan), krav manga and Haganah. Muay Thai is probably my favorite for kicks.


I did take some wado-do Karate and liked the traditional stuff, but it was better for helping me relax, not fight. I like both, I just don't see the need to mix them. So, I switched and started training at a MMA (aka cage fighting) class and took yoga separately.

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Post by Lealla » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:20 am

My TKD instructor believed in learning practical fighting, so in addition to the basic punching and kicking, we also practiced grappling; some close-in fighting (elbows, knees, hook punches, etc.); throws, falls, and joint manipulation (mix of Judo and Hap Ki Do); and there was also an optional weapons class (staff, nunchuck, sai, and sticks).

More important than any of that is the attitude, which is no more and no less than the belief that, in a fight, you are capable of defending yourself. You could have decades of training behind you, but if you freeze in a critical moment, you're toast. My second degree exam was incredibly tough for me not so much because of the techniques but because the fighting required me to step it up and actually get aggressive, something I have a very hard time doing.

A note about kicks: Tae Kwon Do develops the concept of delivering maximum force to a specific target on the body. The techniques mainly focus your body's energy to a point, penetrate the target, and quickly withdraw. It's not about crushing per se, it's much more about delivering a shock.

Comparing systems to each other in terms of effectiveness is missing the point. Unless you're facing off against another comparably trained martial artist, the relative power of the techniques is far less important than the simple ability to fight. If someone pulls a knife on me, whether I disembowel him with a front kick, shatter his ribs with a Muay Thai kick, or shoot him in the face is kind of irrelevant; the point is that I fought him and won.
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Post by Ecnailla » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:55 am

Oh, I agree "snap" kicks have a use - they can be very painful and have a very stunning ability to them - but the aren't quite as devastating as a MT kick. I am much better (simply because of past training) at traditional martial arts kicks, so I would stick to them in a fight. But as I said- I think MT kicks are simply more effective at actually doing damage. One of the downsides to MT kicks is most of the time they are very easy to block b/c you simply have to "telegraph" the move. That is, you show what you are about to do before you do it. Their tactic is to simply kick through the block. I have blocked a MT kick before and regretted not just getting the hell out of the way, it hurts to even block. On the other hand, I have kicked a guy in the temple (with head gear on) with a snap kick before he realized I was going to kick that high - he blocked his ribs.


One of Haganah's main principals is the misdirection of thought. If I send a snap kick to your shin, you stop thinking about what I am doing with my hands. Small, located pain is used to keep the other person distracted from what you are actually doing to them.


Some competition teaches bad form, but it does help you get comfortable with getting physical. My main issue with "traditional" competition is you touch for points and you have a lot of padding. This isn't very realistic. The kid I kicked in the head in the situation above, still has no clue what it is like to get kicked in the head and keep fighting. I know it has gotten very popular with Spike tv and the UFC, but MMA style competition actually teaches you how to fight and feel very confident in yourself. A lot of black belts in various martial arts have never taken a honest to goodness blow to the face and then had to keep up the fight. Getting tapped, pad to pad, with a kick is one thing - taking a kick to the stomach skin to skin is a whole different thing to get used to.


Why is that important? Say you are walking down the street and mugger slams your head into a wall from behind - you are dazed... can you still fight?


I always wanted to take some weapon classes. I have some videos on knife fighting that I find invaluable. I always carry about a 4 inch folding knife when I'm not at work simply to event he odds in a bad situation. If someone picks up anything blunt or sharp that can be used as a weapon, a quickly deployable pocket knife is the best way to even the playing field. I'm no expert with a knife, but I can hold my own. I'd love to learn nunchuck and sai, but still - just for show. Sticks on the other hand... escrimina is very amazing to watch and extremely practical. (not sure if i spelled that right)



I do compare systems because I like to compete. I would love to be an armature MMA fighter and all modesty aside, I think I would be good at it. The first and only traditional martial arts competition I was in, I took a silver. I'm very flexible and quick for being 6'1 230lbs. Time and money are the only things keeping me from being actively involved in the sport. I also find comparing system beneficial simply because it adds more tools to your toolbox- if you only know one style - you may do fine 1v1, but what if 3 people attack you - do you know the best way to handle situations that aren't even sided? I would use totally different styles to defend my self against 1 person instead of 2 or 3. (With 1 person I would want to get in close and control them with join locks, if there is more than 1 I wouldn't dare get locked up in a grapple type situation. - Distance is your friend and quick devastating attacks, like breaking an ankle, would be the direction I would go.)


I do agree your mindset is very important. If you don't feel comfortable doing what you are doing, you will fail horribly.

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Post by Kalianna » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:34 pm

Wow all this fantastic chatter makes my simple life that much sweeter.
Please someone, give me the knowledge to only Blink when I should.

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Post by zephar » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:08 pm

Ecnailla wrote:
The best it has ever been put to me is like this - you have 4 zones you can fight in - Kicking range, Punching range, close in ( think bear hugs, knees and elbows) and on the ground. If you want to be an effective fighter, you need to be able to handle yourself in easy of the 4 zones. When I was 17 I had a older friend (30ish) who had multiple black belts. He is the one that told me the zone thing. He said he spent the first 5 years on just Tae Kwon Do and could do some really beautiful kicks in the air, but he realized after 5 years he had made a mistake. He said, If I would have gotten in a bar fight, I would have had my ass handed too me - If I had a chance to start over, I would take about 2 years Ju-jitsu for the ground and close in range, about a year of traditional American boxing for the punching range and about 2 years Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai or Kickboxing for the Kicking range.


I love ju-jitsu (brazil, not japan), krav manga and Haganah. Muay Thai is probably my favorite for kicks.
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I have to agree I highly regard Krav manga, due to it's real life applications. I have always respected Kickboxers as well as Muay Thai fighters. I think what attracts me to those two martial arts is that for a fighter to be profficient in it they must be able to put all focus into it. Their bodies are tuned to be in perfect shape and have sharp minds. But if I had to pick one of the two I would probably lean towards Muay Thai just for the fact that their moves can be devasting. I'm going to taking classes in one of the two I just need to decide which one I like. I'm already in great shape, flexable, and have a great amount of stamnia.
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Post by Ecnailla » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:33 pm

Go MT. A big problem with kickboxing is finding an REAL kickboxing class. The last thing you want is for them to roll out a tv/vcr with Billy Blanks leading a class full of single moms. (or is it...)


A lot of kickboxing classes are just cardo classes and on top of that they teach you bad form.


MT can be pretty freakin hard core. I spared with a guy who used to do it in his home country for a living. He spoke very little english and sparing with him wasn't much like sparing at all - they consider sparing to be full contact, full speed (the only way to learn, apparently lol). I blocked just about everything he threw at me and I felt like I had the shit beat out of me with clubs before it was done.


Krav manga is great for real world application, but if you try to grab a guy's face and plant your thumbs in his eyes or slam his nose down on the crown of your skull at any compatition I have been to, they don't give bonus points. Krav Manga and Haganah are my "no other choice" moves. If I feel my life or someone elses life is on the line, they very possibly will end up with a broken neck (or getting Schlocked out as the instructor of Haganah puts it).

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Post by Ecnailla » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:04 pm

Split into its own thread.

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Post by Palehorse » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:29 pm

I took karate when I was younger, and as ecn said, if I had time and money, I'd prob consider picking it up again (or maybe JKD)....

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