Favorite comic Villains / Anti-Heroes

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zephar
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Post by zephar » Fri May 08, 2009 5:37 pm

I LOVE BACKFLIPS AND APPLEPIE OMG!
Last edited by zephar on Fri May 08, 2009 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lealla » Fri May 08, 2009 5:41 pm

Ecnailla wrote:And we are free to ignore him if we like. IMO Boba's story in the new movies is bull shit : )
You're welcome to that opinion - in fact, I kind of agree - but you're talking about separate continuities here. You could tell me Boba Fett is a glowing green space anemone, but if you're citing non-canonical sources, it doesn't really help the discussion.
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Ecnailla
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Post by Ecnailla » Fri May 08, 2009 5:49 pm

The problem is you are simply going off of the movies on star wars. That's a lealla rule that no one else agreed to play by.

Boba Fett... the character... as created by a film and developed in many formats.... is an anti hero.

Han... the character... was created as an anti-hero but was turned pure hero very very quickly and is no longer an antihero. (Sorry, he lost his edge and went soft)

Seraph is a machine that helps neo, but is also helping the machines in a way. He is anti hero (or anti-supporting character if you must).

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Guenever
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Post by Guenever » Fri May 08, 2009 5:50 pm

I like She-Ra.

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Post by Lealla » Fri May 08, 2009 6:27 pm

I just don't see anything heroic in Boba Fett's actions. What did he do that was so great that it balances out unrepentantly working for the Empire and Jabba?

Seraph cannot be an antihero because he isn't a hero. The one is required for the other. And there is no such thing as an "anti-supporting character". I'd classify him as a Mauve Shirt.
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Post by Ecnailla » Fri May 08, 2009 7:19 pm

Yea, well... if you want to get that technical, han can't be an antihero because he isn't the main character. There are no anti-supporting characters either. You trip over your own rules. I think the goal of this topic was to post your favorite bad guys and guys in the middle ground. Everyone I listed falls in that area.

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Post by Lealla » Fri May 08, 2009 8:26 pm

Just because Hollywood classifies Han as a supporting character because of some silly rule about how "there can only be one leading role in a film" doesn't mean we have to treat him that way. Han is one of the main protagonists, so he can be a hero/antihero/whatever.

If there's a novel in which Boba Fett takes a starring role, then he can indeed be considered a protagonist. However, that doesn't make him a hero automatically; it depends on the story. Occasionally, villains get the spotlight as protagonists, making them (amazingly) villain protagonists. However, I admit to not knowing anything about the novel, so I suppose it's possible he's treated as an antihero there. It doesn't seem worth arguing over anymore. /shrug
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Post by Ecnailla » Fri May 08, 2009 9:20 pm

Lealla wrote:It doesn't seem worth arguing over anymore.

it never did lol

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Post by Stask » Sat May 09, 2009 1:25 am

Despite his mercenary tendencies in Ep IV, Han isn't really an anti-hero though he does seem to come across as one in A New Hope. Though this is EU (semi-)canon, it's stated that Han originally attended the Imperial Academy at the age of 18 and was well on his way to becoming a promising young officer in the Imperial Fleet when he crossed paths with a certain Wookie slave named Chewbacca. I don't know the details but somehow Han managed to free Chewbacca from his servitude and was subsequently cashiered out of the Academy for his insubordination. That's how Han earned his life debt from Chewbacca, something that Han was never really comfortable with. Chewbacca swore an oath that he would "protect" Han as long as it took to save his life and pay off the life debt. Han never liked the idea of having someone so fully in debt to him, but he and Chewbacca eventually became friends and smuggling partners. Han was also savvy enough to realize that having an 8-foot tall, ludicrously strong and initimidating alien at your side would be extremely helpful when you're going into the smuggling business. Han may have been a cynical smuggler when we first see him but for all that, he never used Chewbacca's life debt to him to his advantage or to Chewbacca's detriment. Even for Han Solo, some things were beyond the pale. I can't see Han Solo as an anti-hero, even when he was in his young smuggler phase.

But in the novel that Guen quoted from when she was talking about Fett, that same short story also has scenes from Han's life, interspesed with scenes from Boba Fett's life as he became an up-and-coming bounty hunter. There is one particularly memorable scene where Han, twenty years after the Battle of Yavin and after having married Princess Leia and having fathered three children with her, finds himself alone at home reminiscing about what would have happened if he hadn't rescued Luke Skywalker in the Death Star trench:
Sitting in the pilot's seat, in the Millenium Falcon's cockpit, Han initiated a launch sequence. He didn't really intend to take the ship up, he just wanted to look at the sky.

You can pinpoint moments when change occurs. Not always; some changes are like the tide, slow and barely perceptible until they have come, or gone.

Sometimes, though--

Han did think this, and with, oddly, increasing frequency as the event itself grew more distant in time: the Death Star was coming; and it was going to destroy the Rebel base, the Rebels themselves, and their plainly doomed Rebellion. Han had taken Chewie and the Falcon, and had gotten out with time to spare--

Chewie was furious; Han could tell. Chewie wanted to fight. They'd sat here, together, in the Falcon's control room, with Chewie not talking to him. Han had made not one, but two errors, calculating the jump to hyperspace. Finally, he had his trajectory--and he hadn't been able to run it.

"All right, all right, let's go fight," he'd yelled at Chewie finally, almost twenty years ago, convinced they were both heading to their deaths--

He sat in the cockpit of the Falcon, almost twenty years later, and wondered what might have been: Leia would be dead, and so would Luke. His children would never have been born. The Empire would still rule the galaxy, and he and Chewie would be traveling from world to world, one step ahead of the Imperials, one step ahead of the bounty hunters.

No, thought Han. Not 'one step.' Someone would have caught me--Boba Fett, IG-88--someone--and I'd have had no friends to come and rescue me from Jabba.

Twenty years.

To this day Han could remember with perfect clarity...how close he had come to punching in that trajectory, and leaving Leia and Luke behind. He woke up at night, sometimes, in cold sweats, thinking about it.

How very close.

If his parents were still alive, Han thought, they'd be impressed by the man he'd grown into---and not the least bit surprised at how close it had come to not happening.
Granted, this is EU canon, not movie canon, but this scene strikes me as being very true to Han's character. I think Ec is right when he says that han is not an anti-hero, though I disagree about him "going soft." I think a better term would be that Han "went respectable" in the time between the First Galactic Civil War and the Yuuzhan Vong war. During the Yuuzhan Vong War and the Second Galactic Civil War, Han's old smuggling skills and contacts came in very handy, but whether he stopped being "respectable" at those times is something that Ec and I can debate at a later time. ;-)

In any case, Han definitely doesn't pass muster as the completely good and moral bhodisattva Luke becomes as the Grand Master of the Jedi Order. But despite the fact Han may be cynical and perhaps even a bit world-weary ("I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other"), there are still red lines that he won't cross under any circumstances. Do anti-heroes have any red lines that they won't cross under any circumstances?

As for The Crow (I'm talking about Eric Draven the original iteration of the Crow, not any of the subsequent ones), I can't really see him as an anti-hero either, despite the fact that he is a violent vigilante and because of the fact that he goes out of his way to help the innocent (there are those red lines again), but that's a discussion for tomorrow when I have more time to type and have had a good night's sleep.
"I am unworthy of any respect. True story." -Brulan

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Post by Ecnailla » Sat May 09, 2009 2:38 am

Usually, the "judge, jury and executioner" heros are anti heros. Crow isn't going to throw them in jail, he kills them nice and violently.

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Post by Lealla » Sat May 09, 2009 9:56 am

Stask, you just defined exactly what an antihero is. They come in a lot of flavors but lack of respect for authority and "taking things into their own hands" are two defining traits.
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